Legends of Equestria - Forum

Roleplay Board => Original Characters => Topic started by: Blues-Music on 2012 Oct 23, 16:38:26

Title: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Blues-Music on 2012 Oct 23, 16:38:26
Alright.Whats the biggest problem facing our community today?Thats right Mary sues.Even though Magus has created the wanderer which is made to stop mary sues some ponies do not know the proper ways of nerfing their O.Cs.
Well here in this thread I judge the OP lvl of your O.C , and say what needs to be changed.So start posting.
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Sponk on 2012 Oct 23, 16:45:32
Okay then, can you rate Sponky Wyndheimer's Mary-sueness?

http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=3149.msg226922#msg226922
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Midnight Breeze on 2012 Oct 23, 16:46:47
I find the Universal Mary Sue Test (http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm) an invaluable tool that more OCs writers ought to utilize. It's more aimed toward characters with a developed backstory, so results for role-play only OCs might be skewed.

Midnight scored a modest 14, but then I intentionally wrote him to be a weakling.
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 23, 17:02:53
Rate all my characters? ovO http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=2636
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Blues-Music on 2012 Oct 23, 17:18:56
I personally don't like that mary sue test quiz thing as it judges your character by name , and eye color too.

Anyway sponk wyndheimer:Good just one thing.You do realize Dynomite can be used to blow up medium sized mountains?Judging by how small ponyville is i'd say you might be able to destroy it.The whole dynomite thing is okay as long as you tone it down a little like saying you have a limited supply , or it having a low blast radius.Other wise good so Mary sue lvl is :3.Well developed ,strong , but not too strong yet it can use a tweak.

Now for Magus:This O.C is incredibly developed however i'm not too comfy knowing that a pony can create runes , and potions in a jiffy.That doesn't mean its bad its a strong side which is actually a good thing.So yes this O.C is well developed with abilities balanced that he doesn't require much nerfs.
So lvl is :2.Well developed , and is strong in his abilities.It isn't too week ,or too strong.Keep up the good work.

Juniper blossom:Well Juniper doesn't seem like the pony that can fight because I don't see much battle powerups.This is great however it would be awesome if you gave your pony some small abilities like being a bit strong , or being fast.
So the lvl is:1.5 Well developed yet has abilities that will not serve much porpuse in battle.Most RP's are focused on battle so if this O.C wants to join a none social Rp I suggest making it a bit stronger.Yet this O.C isn't too week as it seems to be a pacifist O.C not made for fighting.

Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 23, 17:34:07
to clarify, he creates the matrices that USE runes and potions, on the fly, so he still makes the runes and potions at the same rate as anypony else.  Like... building a rough goldberg-like machine, with telekinesis, on the fly.  Draw a circle, put down the items (either found or carried), and instant matrix, though probably not too strong, efficient or durable.

Juniper, well, she WAS born on a farm and works with her hooves, so she's not altogether "weak" physically, she's just not a trained fighter the way almost everypony else seems to be :P

thanks for the reviews ^-^
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Rad Thunder on 2012 Oct 23, 17:42:25
I put Rad Thunder through the Mary Sue test and got 18, which is normal. :)
Could you rate him plz Blue?
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=2951.0 (First one of course)
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Chirp on 2012 Oct 23, 17:45:53
I put Majem through that test and got a 2  :I I guess I'm too sleepy to answer right, or maybe he's just like that.

http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=5210.0
Want to rate 'im? Go ahead  ^-^
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Lord of Madness on 2012 Oct 23, 17:46:42
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=100.0 <--- test mine  please :3 even though im sure he is not op and stuffs lol
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 23, 17:48:59
Quote from: Lord of Madness on 2012 Oct 23, 17:46:42
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=100.0 <--- test mine  please :3 even though im sure he is not op and stuffs lol
definitely take the Universal Mary Sue Test (http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm) :]  It's almost GEARED for most characters on this forum lol
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Zaner-Boy on 2012 Oct 23, 17:52:21
I'm going to end up redoing my OC soon, so maybe after that...
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Blues-Music on 2012 Oct 23, 17:59:51
Rad thunder:The O.C is pretty well designed.He has some powers , but he has a huge weakness which is taking off his glasses.So yes this O.C isn't mary sue , and is very well developed.
lvl:2.Strong , well developed , and greatly nerfed.

Majem:The whole character is great since his lack of body power makes up with intelligence , and water transformations.However your water transformation would be easily beaten by a pony of lightning which believe it , or not happens a lot around here.So basically some of the O.C's here are actually great I haven't seen a single mary sue yet.Lvl:1.5.He can't really fight back , but in stratedgy , and stealth he is great.This makes his nerfs match up with his abilities.

Madness:Your O.C is amazingly well developed.Him being insane is incredibly original.You have displayed a few abilities that could use a tiny tweak , but not really anything of importance.
Lvl:2.5.A bit too powerful yet nothing near a Mary sue lvl.You could add a tiny nerf to your abilities , but it won't make a difference.Great O.C
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Rad Thunder on 2012 Oct 23, 18:06:39
Quote from: Blues-Music on 2012 Oct 23, 17:59:51
Rad thunder:The O.C is pretty well designed.He has some powers , but he has a huge weakness which is taking off his glasses.So yes this O.C isn't mary sue , and is very well developed.
lvl:2.Strong , well developed , and greatly nerfed.


Spoiler: show
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g305/Meuterei/Ponies/flutteryay-1.gif)
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Cutiebone on 2012 Oct 23, 19:03:15
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 23, 17:48:59
Quote from: Lord of Madness on 2012 Oct 23, 17:46:42
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=100.0 <--- test mine  please :3 even though im sure he is not op and stuffs lol
definitely take the Universal Mary Sue Test (http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm) :]  It's almost GEARED for most characters on this forum lol

I... I made a 52.. >.<
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 23, 19:24:00
Quote from: Cutiebone on 2012 Oct 23, 19:03:15
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 23, 17:48:59
Quote from: Lord of Madness on 2012 Oct 23, 17:46:42
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=100.0 <--- test mine  please :3 even though im sure he is not op and stuffs lol
definitely take the Universal Mary Sue Test (http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm) :]  It's almost GEARED for most characters on this forum lol

I... I made a 52.. >.<
x3... um, well... i... don't really know what to say... x3
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Stitchin Time on 2012 Oct 23, 19:40:49
Quote from: Cutiebone on 2012 Oct 23, 19:03:15
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 23, 17:48:59
Quote from: Lord of Madness on 2012 Oct 23, 17:46:42
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=100.0 <--- test mine  please :3 even though im sure he is not op and stuffs lol
definitely take the Universal Mary Sue Test (http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm) :]  It's almost GEARED for most characters on this forum lol

I... I made a 52.. >.<


Got 30 on the first section. :'(
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Little Star on 2012 Oct 23, 19:42:45
Do me do me!  :D
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Anibell April Dash on 2012 Oct 23, 20:32:35
do
Spoiler: show
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=5318.0


Oc based off me

(prepares for character to be called a mary sue XD)
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Blues-Music on 2012 Oct 24, 01:18:01
I'm sorry starsong I need to see your OC somehow.Do you have a link to its thread?

Starfruit Delight Surprise:Since this pony isn't a fighting class it can not be called Mary sue until it has over powered abilities.Deciding is actually good.I also didn't understand the last sentence.Did you mean to say surprise which is pinkies old form teach you that , or do you mean the wonderbolts tought you?Either way that is the only O.P thing here which is that you managed to get the wonderbolts to train you even though Rainbowdash can't get them to do that.
Lvl:2.3.Its good in all , but the backstory.Yes a backstory can make a pony a mary sue.You just need to make one tweak in your story.You don't have to make it more normal you can keep the same idea , but just change the character.
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Night Pony on 2012 Oct 24, 08:57:47
Another OC evaluation thread? Don't we already have like two?  o.O
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 24, 11:00:59
Quote from: Blues-Music on 2012 Oct 24, 01:18:01
I'm sorry starsong I need to see your OC somehow.Do you have a link to its thread?
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=4557.0

^it was in her sig x3
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Rayman on 2012 Oct 24, 12:17:17
Test mines out? http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=4521.0
I bet mine is just off the charts  >.<
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Gracie Sky on 2012 Oct 24, 14:26:42
Shouldn't it be Mare-y Sue? Get it? Mare? Uhuhuhuhu  ovO

*ahem* Anyways, if you're offering, there's no harm in giving you more OCs to rate! You don't have to rate them all, of course, since there's a lot of them and their bios are a bit lengthy.

Gracie Sky (http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=3927.0)
Terra Rose (http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=3072.0)
Fletchessa (http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=4234.0)
Kaleido Heart (http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=4488.0)
Tidal Chariot (http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=5298.0)

Note: I designed Gracie to appear to be Sueish on purpose.
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: ShadowHeart on 2012 Oct 24, 14:38:18
I'm afraid I must agree. It started with godmodding in a few of rps i was in but dismissed it and then when a guardian pony was made that wasn't a unicorn but could cast spells was made (and do unicorn magic). I dismissed this too as I thought I was overreacting. Turns out I wasn't. We now have more guardian pegasi with god like powers and ponies that are immortal and seem to enjoy it (immortality should be treated as torture). Then I knew something was up when someone wrote in bold letters: DO NOT STEAL. That is a major sign that there is a mary sue problem(i don't know where that term came from). It's ok to have pegasi that can have powers but unicorn powers. It's alright to have an immortal character or one with abnormal powers. While these are ok, ur character needs to have FLAWS. A rule of thumb should be this=

the greater the power, the greater the flaw.

For instance, my character Shadow Shimmer can do a sonic shadowboom but she can't touch clouds without them erupting into thunder and lightning which causes her to be bad with weather and she was kicked off all the weather teams. My character Demoness is undead but it makes her really sad and she loses energy fast if she bleeds out because she can't feel her weakness until it hits her in one blast. Scythe is warm blooded and if temperatures get too cold, he goes down. So I think we really should have our OCs approved by mods

btw, i read about Tidal Chariot and I loved it! She had a unique personality and a unique taslent. one of the first pegasi ive seen that focuses on control rather than speed!

EDIT: yikes! The test said shadow was a 79! Well, some of the questions were a yes but they seemed to apply to one specific thing rather than what i meant...
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Lord of Madness on 2012 Oct 24, 18:10:10
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 23, 19:24:00
Quote from: Cutiebone on 2012 Oct 23, 19:03:15
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 23, 17:48:59
Quote from: Lord of Madness on 2012 Oct 23, 17:46:42
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=100.0 <--- test mine  please :3 even though im sure he is not op and stuffs lol
definitely take the Universal Mary Sue Test (http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm) :]  It's almost GEARED for most characters on this forum lol

I... I made a 52.. >.<
x3... um, well... i... don't really know what to say... x3

HURRAY on my score :DD
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Anibell April Dash on 2012 Oct 24, 18:18:41
Quote from: Blues-Music on 2012 Oct 24, 01:18:01
I'm sorry starsong I need to see your OC somehow.Do you have a link to its thread?

Starfruit Delight Surprise:Since this pony isn't a fighting class it can not be called Mary sue until it has over powered abilities.Deciding is actually good.I also didn't understand the last sentence.Did you mean to say surprise which is pinkies old form teach you that , or do you mean the wonderbolts tought you?Either way that is the only O.P thing here which is that you managed to get the wonderbolts to train you even though Rainbowdash can't get them to do that.
Lvl:2.3.Its good in all , but the backstory.Yes a backstory can make a pony a mary sue.You just need to make one tweak in your story.You don't have to make it more normal you can keep the same idea , but just change the character.
theres a wonderbolt named Surprise (check wiki for all wonder bolts, theres one named surprise) and..nah, whatevs not changing my oc  :]
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 24, 21:16:39
Quote from: Anibell April Dash on 2012 Oct 24, 18:18:41
Quote from: Blues-Music on 2012 Oct 24, 01:18:01
I'm sorry starsong I need to see your OC somehow.Do you have a link to its thread?

Starfruit Delight Surprise:Since this pony isn't a fighting class it can not be called Mary sue until it has over powered abilities.Deciding is actually good.I also didn't understand the last sentence.Did you mean to say surprise which is pinkies old form teach you that , or do you mean the wonderbolts tought you?Either way that is the only O.P thing here which is that you managed to get the wonderbolts to train you even though Rainbowdash can't get them to do that.
Lvl:2.3.Its good in all , but the backstory.Yes a backstory can make a pony a mary sue.You just need to make one tweak in your story.You don't have to make it more normal you can keep the same idea , but just change the character.
theres a wonderbolt named Surprise (check wiki for all wonder bolts, theres one named surprise) and..nah, whatevs not changing my oc  :]
your choice, of course.  but now you know :] so don't be complaining if players start calling your character a mary sue, because now you know.
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Nidking on 2012 Oct 26, 17:51:12
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=5017.0;viewresults

Would you mind checking up on Aurora Flare?

I did that Mary Sue test which people kept linking and got a -4 overall. I myself didn't look at what the score meant, but I assume a -4 means it's not very good ^^;

Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 26, 18:01:43
Quote from: Nidking on 2012 Oct 26, 17:51:12
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=5017.0;viewresults

Would you mind checking up on Aurora Flare?

I did that Mary Sue test which people kept linking and got a -4 overall. I myself didn't look at what the score meant, but I assume a -4 means it's not very good ^^;
-4 means awesome and not at all mary sue :]  which means you're awesome!
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Anibell April Dash on 2012 Oct 28, 15:01:20
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 24, 21:16:39
Quote from: Anibell April Dash on 2012 Oct 24, 18:18:41
Quote from: Blues-Music on 2012 Oct 24, 01:18:01
I'm sorry starsong I need to see your OC somehow.Do you have a link to its thread?

Starfruit Delight Surprise:Since this pony isn't a fighting class it can not be called Mary sue until it has over powered abilities.Deciding is actually good.I also didn't understand the last sentence.Did you mean to say surprise which is pinkies old form teach you that , or do you mean the wonderbolts tought you?Either way that is the only O.P thing here which is that you managed to get the wonderbolts to train you even though Rainbowdash can't get them to do that.
Lvl:2.3.Its good in all , but the backstory.Yes a backstory can make a pony a mary sue.You just need to make one tweak in your story.You don't have to make it more normal you can keep the same idea , but just change the character.
theres a wonderbolt named Surprise (check wiki for all wonder bolts, theres one named surprise) and..nah, whatevs not changing my oc  :]
your choice, of course.  but now you know :] so don't be complaining if players start calling your character a mary sue, because now you know.
Made a new oc, this time with a BIGGER backstory, so i didnt change the last one cuz i made a new one, worked on weeks on the new one
(usually very busy writting a book in rl to show my teacher tht im responcible)
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 28, 18:03:35
Quote from: Anibell April Dash on 2012 Oct 28, 15:01:20Made a new oc, this time with a BIGGER backstory, so i didnt change the last one cuz i made a new one, worked on weeks on the new one
(usually very busy writting a book in rl to show my teacher tht im responcible)
ah, I see.  Nice job :]  maybe you could submit that one :]
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Nidking on 2012 Oct 28, 18:44:37
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 26, 18:01:43
Quote from: Nidking on 2012 Oct 26, 17:51:12
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=5017.0;viewresults

Would you mind checking up on Aurora Flare?

I did that Mary Sue test which people kept linking and got a -4 overall. I myself didn't look at what the score meant, but I assume a -4 means it's not very good ^^;
-4 means awesome and not at all mary sue :]  which means you're awesome!


Ah, well, I at least can relax then ^^ I'm just hoping for a good review from this fellow.
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 28, 19:48:08
Quote from: Nidking on 2012 Oct 28, 18:44:37
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 26, 18:01:43
Quote from: Nidking on 2012 Oct 26, 17:51:12
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=5017.0;viewresults

Would you mind checking up on Aurora Flare?

I did that Mary Sue test which people kept linking and got a -4 overall. I myself didn't look at what the score meant, but I assume a -4 means it's not very good ^^;
-4 means awesome and not at all mary sue :]  which means you're awesome!


Ah, well, I at least can relax then ^^ I'm just hoping for a good review from this fellow.
good luck! ^-^
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Plumeria Paradise on 2012 Oct 29, 15:30:27
I took that Mary Sue test for Plumeria and I got a -1
wat.
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Midnight Breeze on 2012 Oct 29, 20:33:53
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 26, 18:01:43
-4 means awesome and not at all mary sue :]  which means you're awesome!


Not really. 'The lower the better' is a very one-dimensional way of looking at the test. Remember you don't want to make an Anti-Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiSue) either. If your score is lower than about 5 or so, you should probably spice them up. Ideally, aim for a score of about 10-20.
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Plumeria Paradise on 2012 Oct 29, 22:53:33
Yeah, that's what I was thinking
It even says 1-16 you need to spice it up
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Nala Valor on 2012 Oct 29, 23:28:26
 :I
I had 38... I thought I would have done something like between 25-30 but 38? Ouch. 
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Plumeria Paradise on 2012 Oct 30, 00:56:12
My plum's not very developed at all though. I don't have anything for a job, house, or family. I just have the basics. Why she has her curie mark, likes, dislikes, and basic personality are pretty much it. Definitely need to work on her more :P
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Tiger on 2012 Oct 30, 01:48:18
Got a 24 for the Mary Sue test. That's good, right? ovO
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 30, 03:16:27
17 for Feather, I guess from the text that means I'm good :3 and thank you again for the review, Blues ^-^
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Nova Class on 2012 Dec 18, 01:00:49
........... Nova got a 120 on that Mary-Sue test....... I don't think she's mary-sue..... she's just a Read the forum rules. noble....
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: ComputerDeathglare on 2012 Dec 18, 10:02:44
Quote from: Nova Class on 2012 Dec 18, 01:00:49
........... Nova got a 120 on that Mary-Sue test....... I don't think she's mary-sue..... she's just a Read the forum rules. noble....


...

Skyler: :3
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Weremetalwolf on 2012 Dec 18, 11:42:08
Would you might check my OC?
Silent Shadow (http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=5671.0/)
I did the test and I got 23, but I don't think I was completely honest X3
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: alexandas on 2012 Dec 18, 13:45:41
Rate spellsworth
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=5705.0
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Nova Class on 2012 Dec 19, 17:20:33
Quote from: ComputerDeathglare on 2012 Dec 18, 10:02:44
Quote from: Nova Class on 2012 Dec 18, 01:00:49
........... Nova got a 120 on that Mary-Sue test....... I don't think she's mary-sue..... she's just a Read the forum rules. noble....


...

Skyler: :3


You must have gotten a high score on your Mary-Sue test too Skyler.... With all of those weirdo powers of yours...  :\
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: ComputerDeathglare on 2012 Dec 19, 18:10:45
Quote from: Nova Class on 2012 Dec 19, 17:20:33
Quote from: ComputerDeathglare on 2012 Dec 18, 10:02:44
Quote from: Nova Class on 2012 Dec 18, 01:00:49
........... Nova got a 120 on that Mary-Sue test....... I don't think she's mary-sue..... she's just a Read the forum rules. noble....


...

Skyler: :3


You must have gotten a high score on your Mary-Sue test too Skyler.... With all of those weirdo powers of yours...  :\


I actually got only 35, believe it or not.
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Nova Class on 2012 Dec 19, 18:54:06
Quote from: ComputerDeathglare on 2012 Dec 19, 18:10:45
Quote from: Nova Class on 2012 Dec 19, 17:20:33
Quote from: ComputerDeathglare on 2012 Dec 18, 10:02:44
Quote from: Nova Class on 2012 Dec 18, 01:00:49
........... Nova got a 120 on that Mary-Sue test....... I don't think she's mary-sue..... she's just a Read the forum rules. noble....


...

Skyler: :3


You must have gotten a high score on your Mary-Sue test too Skyler.... With all of those weirdo powers of yours...  :\


I actually got only 35, believe it or not.


o_O How did you and Tiger get such low scores. I was sure it was going to be high. I don't even have powers. I think I may have answered those wrong. There's no way I can be 120 now.
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: Pigeon Key on 2012 Dec 19, 23:28:08
I took the test, I got a 66. Excuse me while I go cry in a corner   D:
Title: Re: Mary sue lvl thread.
Post by: super_chris85 on 2012 Dec 20, 10:51:10
Check my main one out
http://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=5711.msg446978#msg446978