Does Celestia truely punishes her own people, regardless of position?

Started by Bro1997, 2014 Aug 12, 21:10:53

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Bro1997

There may have been threads before about government in Equestria, but does Celestia punish her own citizens from all reaches of Equestria with harsh punishments like banishment, dungeon time for many moons, execution, or turning ponies into stone? Because she did go as far as banishing her sister to the moon and Fluttershy was scared about being banished or being thrown into a dungeon without a fair trail at least. I don't believe her government is truly fair without a trail and a board of representatives who make the laws and have Celestia approve them. It's one of the things I'd worry about if I were to move to Equestria. Would there be freedom or not?

Midnight Breeze

Of course she does. She can't just let crime run rampant and unpunished. Punishing the wicked is justice, not tyranny.

Every single country on Earth as a prison system. Doesn't mean that none of them are free.

Dream Bolt

She's at least a thousand years old. I can't think of any board of representatives that could even come close to matching her knowledge and wisdom with that kind of experience. No offense, but who would have the audacity to assume that they, with their thirty-some years experience, have the right to tell a millennia-old being what to do? Not that I don't think Celestia listens to her subjects. I assume she listens to her subjects equally, and judges fairly based upon that. But to have them instruct her would be like having a ten-year-old telling the President what to do. Even if it's a big group of ten-year-olds, and even if they have some good points, they aren't really qualified to do so. It's like when a little kid thinks its unfair that his parents tell him what to do, like making him eat his vegetables, but when he grows up, he realizes that they were making decisions that would protect him from far less pleasant things, like malnutrition.

Also, we have never seen Celestia punish anypony harshly unless there was no alternative. Banishing Luna was not to punish her sister, but to protect her subjects from what her sister had become, and she seemed quite distressed that she had to do so. The same mentality applies for Discord. Turning him to stone was pretty much the only way to reign in his nearly-omnipotent powers and protect her subjects. (It's not like she could just lock him in jail.) And considering that Tartarus exists as a prison for the wicked and powerful villains of Equestria, like Tirek, and Celestia didn't even put Discord in there, I would say she's pretty lenient.

As for Twilight and Fluttershy's fears, well, they both tend to be a bit paranoid. And besides, look at what ponies have gotten away with. Celestia didn't stop Trixie from leaving Ponyville after the Alicorn Amulet incident, even though the solar sovereign was present at the time during the ceremonies. She didn't judge Fluttershy for stealing her pet, nor Rarity for sending the whole town into stylish chaos with dark magic, nor Twilight Sparkle for performing a spell which entranced most of Ponyville and nearly caused a terrible fracas. (Although she was still quite stern with Twilight, she could have done far worse. Twilight got off from that with little more than a scolding.)

Besides, what everypony seems to overlook is that Luna seems to be the strict one. Cancelling a holiday simply because her subjects are fearful of her? Granted, he whole "Nightmare Moon" thing is a very sore subject for her, so we can't blame her for feeling bothered by an entire holiday based off of her greatest mistake, but still, why is Celestia always painted as the stern dictator, when Luna is the more austere of the two?

Also, I don't think the Equestrian government was quite complete after Luna was banished. The two sisters ruled in a diarchy, Luna's more firm side tempering out Celestia's more lenient side, and vice versa, to ensure that both justice and mercy reigned. Celestia never intended to rule alone. That situation was forced upon her when she was forced to choose between the safety of her subjects and her love for her sister.

And anyways, I agree with Midnight Breeze. Punishing the wicked is justice, not tyranny. And Celestia's been pretty merciful to date.

On a final note, freedom does not mean being free to do whatever you want. That's anarchy. That's chaos. And while one particular inhabitant of Equestria might enjoy such bedlam, I highly doubt anypony else would. If you coddle criminals, then you are still under a dictatorship, only ruled by the criminals instead of the government. As in most things in life, balance is needed, both justice and mercy. We have rules for a reason, not to squelch down freedom, but to keep people from abusing that freedom and hurting themselves or others in the process. Being free to hurt others means that you are taking their freedom from them and forcing your will upon them, be you a king or a robber.
So in other words, just because somepony won't let you jump off a cliff doesn't mean they're squelching your freedom. It means they're looking out for your best interests, because you haven't learned fully yet how to pursue them yourself. They watch after you because you don't know how to watch after yourself fully yet. Because that's love. And love is what any good ruler has for their subjects.

Snow Crystals

Well I guess it depends on the diplomacy they have.
Also princess luna tried to rule over princess celestia for one true ruler of equestria so she had to banish her to the moon for 1000 years but she didn't kill her so that's good.
Discord was a chaos manager.   He made chaos but a lot of people didn't like it so they rebel  to the chaos and then princess luna and princess celestia banish him into stone.

After the cartoon story continues luna didn't get banish to the moon again instead it got rid of her darkness and changed.  As to discord he turned back into stone although I guess he got a 3rd chance to be released from prison in stone but then he betrayed when tirek showed up and then discord got a 4th chance and didn't get to turn into stone. But i guess at that time it was princess twilight to decide rather he turns discord into stone which highly unlikely fluttershy would never agree to it.

Aria BIaze

Quote from: Dream Bolt on 2014 Aug 18, 17:08:51
She's at least a thousand years old. I can't think of any board of representatives that could even come close to matching her knowledge and wisdom with that kind of experience. No offense, but who would have the audacity to assume that they, with their thirty-some years experience, have the right to tell a millennia-old being what to do? Not that I don't think Celestia listens to her subjects. I assume she listens to her subjects equally, and judges fairly based upon that. But to have them instruct her would be like having a ten-year-old telling the President what to do. Even if it's a big group of ten-year-olds, and even if they have some good points, they aren't really qualified to do so. It's like when a little kid thinks its unfair that his parents tell him what to do, like making him eat his vegetables, but when he grows up, he realizes that they were making decisions that would protect him from far less pleasant things, like malnutrition.

Also, we have never seen Celestia punish anypony harshly unless there was no alternative. Banishing Luna was not to punish her sister, but to protect her subjects from what her sister had become, and she seemed quite distressed that she had to do so. The same mentality applies for Discord. Turning him to stone was pretty much the only way to reign in his nearly-omnipotent powers and protect her subjects. (It's not like she could just lock him in jail.) And considering that Tartarus exists as a prison for the wicked and powerful villains of Equestria, like Tirek, and Celestia didn't even put Discord in there, I would say she's pretty lenient.

As for Twilight and Fluttershy's fears, well, they both tend to be a bit paranoid. And besides, look at what ponies have gotten away with. Celestia didn't stop Trixie from leaving Ponyville after the Alicorn Amulet incident, even though the solar sovereign was present at the time during the ceremonies. She didn't judge Fluttershy for stealing her pet, nor Rarity for sending the whole town into stylish chaos with dark magic, nor Twilight Sparkle for performing a spell which entranced most of Ponyville and nearly caused a terrible fracas. (Although she was still quite stern with Twilight, she could have done far worse. Twilight got off from that with little more than a scolding.)

Besides, what everypony seems to overlook is that Luna seems to be the strict one. Cancelling a holiday simply because her subjects are fearful of her? Granted, he whole "Nightmare Moon" thing is a very sore subject for her, so we can't blame her for feeling bothered by an entire holiday based off of her greatest mistake, but still, why is Celestia always painted as the stern dictator, when Luna is the more austere of the two?

Also, I don't think the Equestrian government was quite complete after Luna was banished. The two sisters ruled in a diarchy, Luna's more firm side tempering out Celestia's more lenient side, and vice versa, to ensure that both justice and mercy reigned. Celestia never intended to rule alone. That situation was forced upon her when she was forced to choose between the safety of her subjects and her love for her sister.

And anyways, I agree with Midnight Breeze. Punishing the wicked is justice, not tyranny. And Celestia's been pretty merciful to date.

On a final note, freedom does not mean being free to do whatever you want. That's anarchy. That's chaos. And while one particular inhabitant of Equestria might enjoy such bedlam, I highly doubt anypony else would. If you coddle criminals, then you are still under a dictatorship, only ruled by the criminals instead of the government. As in most things in life, balance is needed, both justice and mercy. We have rules for a reason, not to squelch down freedom, but to keep people from abusing that freedom and hurting themselves or others in the process. Being free to hurt others means that you are taking their freedom from them and forcing your will upon them, be you a king or a robber.
So in other words, just because somepony won't let you jump off a cliff doesn't mean they're squelching your freedom. It means they're looking out for your best interests, because you haven't learned fully yet how to pursue them yourself. They watch after you because you don't know how to watch after yourself fully yet. Because that's love. And love is what any good ruler has for their subjects.

10/10 Essay.  <3 I'm going to have to use this for when someone says my favorite princess is a tyrant.. again...  :l

mystia aurastar

no celestia is not a tyrant she is a kind mother of all the ponies of pony ville she cares about her sister the reason why is because she was doing it for her own good and too protect her from herself so luna would not lead too a dark evil destiny so really she protected luna from being night mare moon and they both missed each other for 1000 years they shared the same pain and love for 1000 years so it proves that celestia is not a tyrant.  >:O

Dream Dust

I don't think Celestia is by any means a tyrant, however, there aren't many examples in the show of how Celestia deals with things like robbery, vandalism, domestics or "lesser" crimes. Whenever it seems Celestia has to punish somepony, they are always insanely powerful and bent on harming others. 

Interestingly enough, a criminal offense like Trixie taking over Ponyville or Flim's and Flam's medicine scam were never brought to Celestia's attention. . . or she didn't feel she needed to be involved (correct me if I'm wrong and she was involved in any of my examples). There is also local government like mayors and sheriffs whom we still have yet to see exercise their judicial power. (Not counting the sheriff agreeing to a pie war.)

I can easily see why some might think she's tyrannical; all the punishments she handles are serious ones, but her character and actions amid times of peace lead us to think otherwise.  I agree with Dream Bolt on so many points. And I don't think she's really an evil overload, but . . .

I do find it odd that she doesn't involve herself in Twilight's many adventures. Some say she is teaching Twilight, but instead of leading other local officials into learning to handle such matters, she's just ensuring that Equestira will always need a 'princess' or magic gems to control their universe. Celestia almost always seems a step ahead in Season 1. She's watching Twilight to see what she might be and might do, but she's not going to help unless Twilight is completely defeated. (Like sending the letters during Return of Harmony). She's really over zealous in training Twilight.

Celestia also puts Twilight in situation where she has to fight the evil forces alone. Often times telling her she can take her friends to a point, but needs to save the day or hide the magic power without the other mane 5. I also find it strange that the spell that got Twilight elevated to alicorn status was one that corrupted her friends and forced her to solve the problem alone (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Did she not know what would happen with that spell? If not, why would she have her trusted student work with it without warning her that she wasn't sure what it did? If she did know, what if Twilight couldn't fix it; what would become of the other elements?

As for Luna and Discord; I want to know why she didn't try to reform them herself. Maybe Luna would have been emotionally too taxing, but why not Discord. Up until his magic was useful, Celestia seemed perfectly okay with just locking him consciously in stone. She also didn't seem too bothered that Sombra looked like he exploded and Queen Chrysalis and her army could possibly starve to death in their banishment either. (That might not have been under her jurisdiction though.)

It's also strange that the Everfree Forest seems able to grow and change weather without pony assistance, but the rest of Equestria can not. It seems that Celestia and Luna are controlling the sun and moon not because they won't rise on their own, but because they want complete order in their world. Everything is controlled and balanced and it's easy to see where anypony might fear being imprisoned for disrupting harmony and bird-napping (kidnapping).

But these are just random thoughts, I don't think she's evil. Don't hate me I do love Celestia! I do! I do! I do! I just have questions!

Night Pony

QuoteAs for Luna and Discord; I want to know why she didn't try to reform them herself.


One of the theory that I agree with for Luna is that Celestia was the beared only for the half of the elements and Luna was the other half. So against Discord they were the most powerful and turn him into stone (as we see the mane6 do too). However when Celestia uses the elements against Luna they are severely weakened because Celestia wasn't the bearer of the other half of the elements.
Discord was reformed by Fluttershy mainly and didn't have to do with the elements. Why didn't Celestia do it? Probably because she and her sister were the reason Discord's reign came to an end. Would you listen to anyone who took everything from you?

I want to thank all of the artist that have drawn my OCs.
Night Shine and Moon Violet

Dream Dust

Quote from: Night Pony on 2015 Jan 19, 05:35:17
Discord was reformed by Fluttershy mainly and didn't have to do with the elements. Why didn't Celestia do it? Probably because she and her sister were the reason Discord's reign came to an end. Would you listen to anyone who took everything from you?

I see your point. I doubt Discord would have listened to Celestia. I think with Luna, Celestia probably only trapped her on the moon for 1,000 years knowing she would get her sister back at the end. I think that's why she wasn't worried when Twilight was freaking out in episode one. She knew it was going to happen and she was trusting Twilight to save her sister. She clearly loves her sister and sending her away was the hardest thing she had ever done.

I think it's also important to remember that 1,000 years ago Celestia was younger. We don't know how young, but she was making the best decisions she knew to make. I don't think I'd really know what to do with the master of chaos tearing apart my reality. I'd probably stone him too.

Still, spending the rest of your life in solitary confinement . . . was that the plan for Discord? She was really surprised when he got out; I don't think she was waiting for his return to reform him. The only reason she let the elements of harmony, all armed and ready to change him back, 'reform' him was so that she could use his magic later. And at the end of the episode Keep Calm and Flutter On, only Fluttershy looks happy with Discord's change of heart. Looking at the mane six they just seem to doubt Discord. They didn't really live though his tyranny except for one gray, whip-creamless day. Celestia has a look of regret on her face I think.

Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
 I don't think she's a tyrant, but she's still prone to mistakes and is still trying to figure out how to best rule her country. If she does something that looks over the top it's because she cares. She even let Discord free after the whole treason thing with Tirek. So I think she's learning how to handle these tougher situations better.

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