An Open Letter To The LoE Development Team

Started by Holiday Cheer, 2018 Sep 30, 22:29:24

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chrome thunder

I agree. There's nothing wrong with team members spawning in clouds or mobs (especially clouds, which attract ponies like bees to flowers). Here's Nightshade sitting on a cloud with 8 or 9 bunnies (incl. hers) at the 1 year anniversary  event:

Zephyrdragnex

That might be the case now but with the spawning of dragons there was a few people that hated dying over and over again in the scc just cus y'all liked it doesn't mean everyone did. cus I know for sure I would be if it happened to me I don't like dying in the game over and over.

Sunny Skies (NLR)

2018 Oct 03, 13:40:54 #22 Last Edit: 2018 Oct 03, 13:51:12 by SunnySkies95
I will say a few things and i don´t like to comment in this subjects but.. i am agree that the thing of "spamming mobs/objects" has been pretty much fun in my point of view, i don´t see why that should be stop. I see a lot of ponies enjoying that and having a lot of fun moments (myself include) on LoE :)  So please, do not stop doing that..

Another point i wanted to say: yes, i said that i support every point of the letter but now that i am reading this messages from both sides i would like to say that i should have wait to first see the arguments from both sides before writting my message. And also, to apologize for that :c

One last thing: i regret saying i support the 3 points of the letter without knowing first the situation.

PD: thanks Gala, Perry, Napalm and Woona for coming and clarify some points here about how moderations works and stuff :)


PD2: I personally hope we can have a conclusion for this subject soon and this ends well.


PD3: i don´t support any of 3 points of the letter (after reading it again and reading all this messages).

perceptre

I would like to thank the LoE team for responding to the letter, and recognize their hard work for keeping LoE running. However, there are real issues here, and I hope we can come to a solution that is good for both the moderators and the players. In particular, there are ways to make things significantly better without making unreasonable demands on the LoE team.

For me, and most of the other signers, the key issue is the warning/ban/appeal procedures, and an important part of this is clear communication. What's past is past, but moving forwards, I have the following suggestions:

  • I propose marking out warnings more clearly. It doesn't have to be elaborate; for example, simply preceding a warning with "WARNING 1" or "WARNING 2" doesn't require much more effort, and makes things clearer for everyone.
  • Be more responsive to appeals. I don't think we should blame anypony in particular. I acknowledge that sorting through these would take a long time. However, there are ways to alleviate it if it is a big burden: for example, the moderators can divide up the work so that no one is overly burdened, and so players can receive a more timely reply.

Clearer communication is good for everyone. As mentioned in the letter, if the warnings and bans are clearer, then appeals would also be easier to deal with: a moderator could effectively respond that warnings were clearly given and ignored, instead of the current back-and-forth arguing about whether the warnings were clear. The less transparent the process is (and it is not necessary to have a completely public log, to meet a reasonable demand of transparency and due process), the more that players expect moderators to be responsible for listening to appeals.

Related to this, I think it is important that the moderators be respectful when dealing with warnings/bans/appeals, and other concerns that players raise. Respect comes both from following a due process and from professional language. Sarcasm and general rudeness have no place in these communications. I am grateful to all the times that moderators are respectful even when players don't respond in kind. When moderators are respectful, it gives players faith that they do in fact have the players' best interests in mind. However, from the issues raised in this thread, I think there is room for improvement.

I also think there's a fundamental disagreement on what's serious enough to get (perma)banned for, and we've skirted around this topic. I think we agree that posting links to adult content is serious, but to use an example that has been brought up, is a one-time 9/11 joke similarly serious enough to get a permaban? For a game based on a world where amnesty is the norm, my personal opinion is that the bans are too harsh. Certainly, inappropriate behavior must be regulated, but I ask you to think about what level is appropriate. What makes a game like LoE so wonderful is the community of players, and we must keep in mind that players are embedded in this community and that drastic punishments have repercussions in this community of friends.

"How easy it is to fly on paper wings!" - Helen Keller

Even Tide

May I suggest an update to the notifications system? So that maybe warnings could appear on the right side of the screen much like trading requests, in case a whisper was missed. Notifications should need to be disabled manually so that they're easier seen. Not everyone pays attention to the options of the bottom right corner. :P

Alternatively, a backlog of sorts could be provided by sending a message to a user through the forums or a direct email. These could provide a screenshot of the offence, including where a mod has given a warning and then why that particular action is against the rules. This is not an instant way of warning users, only for people to be able to have evidence should they be banned in the future or for whatever other reason.

Sorunome

2018 Oct 07, 09:33:29 #25 Last Edit: 2018 Oct 07, 09:36:56 by Sorunome
I am highly disappointed by the lack of conclusions drawn from this.

I know we can't change what's in the past, so let's make things better in the future!

1. Mark warnings clearly
2. Actually follow the protocols - It appears ponies are rarely kicked before being banned
3. The punishments seem way out of proportion - a permaban for an inappropriate joke? Why not a week or a month ban instead?
4. Ban appeal process is painfully slow with very little feedback. If it is too much for Perry to handle alone, why not share the work?
5. "We are not able to read whispers in the game at all.  We are however able to review logs and see what has been said." this is just contradicting itself. It doesn't matter if you can read whispers or party chats within LoE itself or via another program, there seems to be tons of unclarity on this, especially how moderation acts on unreported whispers / party chats.

I'd appreciate answers and hope we can actually reach some conclusions on this.
OFC please also read through and answer / comment on the posts above.

Galapagois

2018 Oct 08, 17:46:19 #26 Last Edit: 2018 Oct 11, 18:08:33 by Galapagois
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 07, 09:33:291. Mark warnings clearly
This has been at least partially addressed elsewhere, but I'll reiterate what I think are the main points here.

If a moderator is telling you directly to stop doing something, you are being warned. I really don't understand what about 'when a moderator tells me to stop they're doing so because what I'm doing breaks the rules' is causing the problem here. I can agree that providing more information would be useful, and I'm fairly certain that I've already indicated as much in previous discussions, as well as that we're discussing the idea internally already. Regardless of that, though, if you're ever uncertain about why a moderator is telling you to stop, which rule they believe you've broken, etc., you are more than welcome to ask them, and they'll almost certainly be happy to tell you if they failed to provide that information at first instance. Once again, if you feel that warnings were not given in a particular case or were unclear, please appeal the decision/report the incident by emailing Perry (preferably with evidence, e.g. screenshots, that can be used to help identify the issue), so that we can review the action(s) of the moderator(s) in question, change a decision if necessary, and try to ensure that such does not occur again.

Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 07, 09:33:292. Actually follow the protocols - It appears ponies are rarely kicked before being banned
This was already at least partially addressed:

Quote from: Galapagois on 2018 Oct 01, 17:11:47At any rate, under this process, no action is taken 'without even warning the player beforehand' except in the most extreme circumstances, where an immediate kick/ban is justified. Again, if anyone feels that such a process has not been followed in their particular case, they are welcome to contact Perry to appeal a moderation decision, at which point the moderation log will be consulted, and if this process has not been followed properly then that will be taken into account.

I'll go a little further now and add that despite repeated requests for evidence of such things occurring that have not been rectified and the moderator responsible corrected, we have yet to be provided with any that I am aware of. That's not to say it has never happened - I'm aware of situations where it has, and those have been rectified on appeal. There may well be other instances where moderators have fallen short, but without being given specific instances where we can review the information available in our logs, or provided with screenshots that clarify a situation/prove our logs to be wrong or incomplete, we can't act on it. If you believe that protocol has not been followed (and that the moderator was not justified in doing so, see previous comments about 'exceptional circumstances where it's more important to stop the behaviour immediately'), you're welcome to appeal moderation's decision; the log will be reviewed, as well as any evidence you can provide, and if the correct procedures were not followed, that will be taken into account when reviewing the appeal.

Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 07, 09:33:293. The punishments seem way out of proportion - a permaban for an inappropriate joke? Why not a week or a month ban instead?
This has already been at least partially addressed:

Quote from: Perry The Pony on 2018 Oct 02, 17:54:14All bans and kicks are reviewed with the moderators who are online at the time. (Which is around 2-5 at any time depending on time of day.)  We all communicate with each other and show what we saw and how to deal with it.  Unless the rule broken is a major one no one takes action without review of the rest of the moderation team. (If you post adult content, advocate hate speech, and anything else that is a major no you will be banned with no questions asked and the ban will not be removed.  Also if you violate any federal or international laws.)

Quote from: Perry The Pony on 2018 Oct 02, 17:54:14Now comes the topic of jokes and context.  9/11 jokes, holocaust jokes, jokes with death/violence, jokes with any sexual conduct or meaning ARE NOT ALLOWED.  If the joke is in poor taste then it is not allowed. We strive to keep an environment that can be enjoyed by all ages and by everyone.  This means you need to run the joke through some filters and think about it before sending the joke.  If the joke would seem in poor taste to say in public to a group of elderly, or young school children, then do not say the joke!

I'll expand further, however, by saying that LoE is not an appropriate venue for such things. If a moderator has told someone to stop, and they continue (to use the example being given repeatedly here: if someone makes an inappropriate joke, and are told by a moderator that that joke was unacceptable, they then immediately follow up by suggesting another topic that they absolutely know will not be tolerated, and proceed to then insult the moderator and make trolling comments like requesting an exemption from the rules specifically for them personally), then moderation will decide the appropriate measure to take to prevent the continuation of the behaviour. If they believe that the behaviour will not stop, then permanently banning that player is the only way to ensure they do not continue. Once more, if you disagree with an action moderation has taken, you are welcome to appeal through Perry, explaining why you believe the response was disproportionate, or in error, or to demonstrate that the behaviour will not continue in the future. Even if a ban appears entirely justified upon review, an appeal that indicates that the player understands that they broke our rules and action was taken accordingly, and that they are committed to ensuring that it won't happen in the future, may well result in a ban being shortened.

Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 07, 09:33:294. Ban appeal process is painfully slow with very little feedback. If it is too much for Perry to handle alone, why not share the work?
This has already been responded to:

Quote from: Galapagois on 2018 Oct 01, 17:11:47Responses to such appeals may not always be immediate; as I'm always quick to remind everyone, we are a completely volunteer team, working on this project in our free time, and around often-hectic work, school, college, university, and life schedules. As such, responses to things like ban appeals, which take time and investigation to fully pursue, may not be swift; they will, however, always be reviewed when the relevant team member has the chance to do so. I'll happily agree that this isn't ideal, and I'm already looking into how ban appeals might be more swiftly addressed - for example, the possibility other senior moderators investigating appeals as well (with exceptions for situations that they themselves were involved in, obviously, e.g. if they were the one who did the ban, they wouldn't be the one to review it).

Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 07, 09:33:295. "We are not able to read whispers in the game at all.  We are however able to review logs and see what has been said." this is just contradicting itself. It doesn't matter if you can read whispers or party chats within LoE itself or via another program, there seems to be tons of unclarity on this, especially how moderation acts on unreported whispers / party chats.
This has already been responded to:

Quote from: Perry The Pony on 2018 Oct 02, 17:54:14MODERATION CANNOT READ WHISPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Head of LoE Public Relations, King of Support, and a nuisance!


Holiday Cheer

Again I want to thank everypony that took the time to review this and to respond.  I just want to give a few thoughts on what I observed through this whole process and then if whoever's in charge here wants to lock this and sweep it under the rug by all means do so.


Personally I joined this movement because I care about Legends of Equestria and it is my firm belief that every single player who joins the game and who wants to play it should be entitled to a fun experience in a world that richly reflects the canon world of My Little Pony Friendship is Magic.  I am trying to make it my life's mission to create that world through fun events, building lasting friendships for myself and others, and helping others with their personal problems.


I believed in this cause because I felt that some ponies had not been given that chance to have that experience.  They were singled out by a vindictive person or were the victim of a failed system.  And that is truly a shame.  But what I have seen come out of this letter and the following discussion is saddening.


There is no real sense of community here.  There are ponies on one side pointing hooves and shouting that the moderation community and other LoE staff never listen and give them what they want.  And there are some very bitter people who have tried to make this entire process personal and drag down people with whom they have personal grievances.  But there are some very real and useful points being made as well.  And on the other side there has been nothing but denial and refusal to cooperate from the majority of the LoE staff to the point of absurdity.  I know there have been some promises of changes and discussions and that is great, if it actually does come to pass.  And hopefully it will.  But there were some very harsh and uncalled for things said here by the Staff as well.  And these are the people who are supposed to be looking out for our world and have its best interest at heart.


In the end I think what we have here was very beneficial.  It has demonstrated that there was a problem in Legends of Equestria.  And whether that problem will continue to exist is up to both the players and the Staff.  I can only hope that things will improve to a point where both sides of this can work together to create the experience we all deserve.


 <3 Holiday Cheer

(This wonderful picture is provided by Even Tide <3)

SaladDean

Public ban logs are usually the standard, friends.  Here are just a few examples:

https://www.yogstation.net/index.php?do=publicbans
https://sg-gaming.net/bans/
https://bans.rustafied.com/


Ultimately the reason for this, as we've seen in this thread, is so the public can trust the moderation team.  It protects moderators from accusations of unfair banning sprees as every ban they make, and the reason for said ban, is public.  When you hold power over people it is generally best practice to provide them some avenue for observing the use of that power, to ensure it won't be used against them unfairly.

There were a lot of points made in this debate with anecdotal evidence, the most unreliable kind of evidence, and without public logs that's all the discussion can ever be.  Obviously every intimate detail of the ban shouldn't be made public, but username + brief description along with ban duration and moderator that issued the ban has been accepted by most communities.  The individual banned should be given the full statement of reasons upon request, of course.  Ex:

somepony - banned for: offensive conduct - duration: 1 week - banned by: somepony else


Maybe even tie this to a warning system, with the time of each warning being displayed under the ban and being made clear to the user with a popup when they are issued.  They only show up on the page after they are used as justification for a ban.  This way people can also see that proper protocol was followed and warnings were given.  Might ultimately be too much work to set up, but again these systems exist primary to protect the moderators from false accusations so any time you save not dealing with those is probably worth the up-front investment.


As for logging private messages, it's rather controversial:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/09/15/twitter_sued_reading_direct_msgs/

If you imply a messaging system is private when it really isn't, you could be violating laws in several states relating to consent and eavesdropping.  Most public communication platforms don't even allow admins to view private messages, likely complying with both these laws and the general ethics of such a position.  Storing private messages typically involves encryption, but in your case it would probably just be easier to not store them at all.  If it's important to you to allow someone who wants to report a private message to do so, there are a variety of ways to handle it without storing messages long-term or in a format readable to anyone except the sender, recipient, and moderators if one of them reports a specific message.  There's probably several libraries for unity or whatever platform the server runs on that should make this possible without in-depth networking and encryption knowledge.

Not that you'd ever actually run into legal trouble, of course, but it does seem that the general expectation is that you'd protect user's privacy and not store their private conversations in plaintext.


It's also common practice to announce in the chat logs when an admin uses a game-changing admin command, so that players know who did it and the record exists for later examination.  Should clear up any misconceptions about moderators abusing their entity spawning rights, if they even have that ability.  It's also somewhat common to provide a console command to all players to check what commands exist and what flags a user must have to use a given command.


When you hold power over others you also have to hold yourself to a higher standard than you do them.  People are smart to distrust those with power over them, especially when that power comes with no apparent checks-and-balances.  The game may not come with a price tag, but the regulars are still investing immense amounts of time into it.  If we're to value someone's time at even half of minimum wage (~$6), spending 10 hours playing this game amounts to $60 of time spent.  That's the up-front cost of a AAA title.  Obviously the dev team gets none of this value for themselves, actually occurring sizable expenses of their own in terms of time and money to accommodate it, but it does at least illustrate the point that some players may have a sizable investment in the game and it's community regardless.

Making a free game can be very taxing as it yields no direct benefit, and often the players just want more than you're already giving them.  However, that's the very nature of labors of love, you do them because you enjoy the work and want to give back to the community.  If that's changed and you've come to hate the community you're supposed to be providing for, something's gone wrong somewhere and maybe you should move on to a new project.  If it hasn't, then do whatever is reasonable to keep your community happy and keep bringing activity to your game.  It's really not supposed to be a fight with the people you're making content for.


Anyway, back to running my vast empire.  Just figured that, as the Saltan of Wheatgypt and Soyria, I'd share the wisdom that power has brought me since I was already passing through the area.

Perry The Pony

Good Evening,

It seems all sides have been heard and have given their responses.  It seems this thread is causing more drama then good so I am locking the thread. 

If you have anymore questions or concerns please reach out to use via email.

Thanks.

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