Just something to tickle the mind. Both Celestia and Luna appear as opposing ends, light and dark. Cadance and Twilight seem to also have something like that, Cadance seems to be a pony of the light, Twilight is the pony of the dark. Of course Twilight could be considered somewhere between light and dark but if you think in this parallel she could take Luna's place of raising the moon and Cadance could raise the sun. Perhaps they will be soon learn to raise the sun and moon later.
To make it clear Cadance and Twilight are both alicorns and princesses. They are sisters-in-law (Luna and Celestia are sisters). Cadance may have her own kingdom but that doesn't mean she can't be given the task of raising the sun.
How is Twilight dark? o.O
Sure they are maybe opposites (Love and Friendship) but they cannot take Celestia's and Luna's place. Cadence and Twilight are not born as alicorns and such have regular life spans while The sisters outlive many generations. Also Cadence and Twilight are not nearly as strong as Luna and Celestia and I doubt they will ever come close to their level of magic.
Well in terms of militaristic power I believe the strongest would be the Elements of Harmony. Something Celestia or Luna doesn't have anymore since they rely on the six mane to utilize it. That could be a sign of a new generation. Celestia and Luna still hold the political position in power and can still control the sun and moon, but I feel if Twilight can achieve alicornhood she would become stronger later. And Cadence she is born an alicorn isn't she? Celestia has told Twilight she was the only one so far that was able to become an alicorn rather than be born as one.
The mane6 do not have the elements anymore. The fact remains that Controling celestial bodies needs a lot of power, which I doubt that neither Twilight nor Cadence have. Also Cadence was a pegasus. In addition Celestia and Luna had many years to evolve their magical powers while Twilight and Cadence did not.
The Crystal Heart Book says Cadence was a pegasus orphan. Not sure how much canon it has with the show but that could say something. I didn't know this until I delved into it. I just remembered Hasbro wanted Cadence to be an alicorn because if she was going to be a princess she had to be an alicorn is their thought (which wasn't the original intention and that ponies were supposed to be princesses even if they weren't alicorns, hence Sombra even though not a princess but a high ranking in royalty was able to be king even if he wasn't an alicorn though not sure if males can be alicorns yet). This could say alicorns are a more popular toy to little girls since Hasbro insisted on princesses required to be alicorns.
We don't know if Celestia and Luna were born Alicorns, even if that was Faust's intention, she also wanted both of them to be the only Alicorns of the show, and that's not what we have. It's a fact that Celestia and Luna had much more time to develop their magic skills than Cadence and Twilight, but I don't think they can't do it, as unicorns raised the sun and moon before Celestia and Luna appeared.
I don't think Cadence and Twilight will substitute Celestia and Luna, as I belive these two will last a lot longer until an apocalyptic event that changes everything known in the world of Equestria, that might or might not be shown in the show or just happen in the minds of the fans, but I do believe they could if needed.
Well they weren't made into Alicorns like Cadence and Twilight. Either they were born (which is more likely in my opinion) or there is a third way to become an alicorn.
Nothing says they didn't turn into Alicorns like Twilight and Cadence. I think it's more plausible than being born as Alicorns, as there is no biological explanation for them to have the characteristics of the three races of ponies. Besides, it would break the importance of Twilight's alicornization, as it represents the ascension of the student to a master status, and represents an actual equality between Twilight and Celestia, and consequently Luna and Cadence as well.
I think Bronycurious made pretty good points in this matter, what was responsible for most of my thoughts about it, so I'll let his video here:
But they already did? o.O
Tia and Luna have lived for a long time yet it was stated that Twilight will not outlive her friends.
Also Twilight gets into situations just like any other pony and apart from the opener the princess part or alicorn part has not played any part in the episodes so far.
As mentioned above, Cadance was apparently born a pegasus. I don't see Cadance being an alicorn as an issue, though. The only being (that we know of) more powerful than Celestia and Luna is Discord, not that you'd trust him with the day/night cycle. lol
Lauren Faust mentioned that Twilight was being trained to eventually succeed Celestia, and we may yet see her grow in power enough to rival the sisters one day. If that does happen I imagine she would take control of both sun and moon without Cadance's help. That said, it's also possible Twilight will remain mortal and only rule for the duration of her normal lifetime, after which somepony else will need to take over.
Well, I'm waiting for their explanation to why Celestia and Luna are immortal and Twilight isn't, because to me it doesn't make sense. I don't like the idea of dividing the Alicorns into two types, the born alicorns and the made alicorns, just like Bronycurious said in the video.
And besides, saying that Twilight won't outlives her friends has actually two possible interpretations: Twilight is mortal or her friends will become immortal as well, what I think would be more interesting. I'm not saying I want them to become alicorns as well, but we don't know if that is the only way to immortality.
And another thing I don't like is exactly the fact that, after the premier, Twilight's alicornization and coronation have meant nothing so far. Even if the alicornization was really well done in the season three finale, if it means nothing after that, than it really looks like just something to sell more toys. I'm really expecting an episode a Twlight episode where her royal duties start.
So the mane6 would outlive their families? o.O
Like it or not they currently divided until they say otherwise. And yes it's most likely they gave her wings to sell toys, it's a show for little girls with the main purpose of advertising toys.
Please, do not claim something as the truth if it hasn't been directly stated in the show or by the writers. We don't know if Celestia and Luna were made or born as Alicorns, so we must accept all possibilities. Of course, there are the most probable ones and the ones each want to be the real, but until they state it in the show, none of them can be claimed as the truth.
Yes, it is a show to advertise toys, what it was always been, but it hasn't kept the show to work with this concept and make it awesome, and I do believe they can make something forced on them to sell more toys as something awesome. It's not just a show for little girls, it's show for all ages and genders, and that's why all ages and genders like it.
And finally, outliving others is a consequence of immortality, yes. It is the main conflict an immortal being needs to overcome, and what many may consider the curse of being immortal. But as someone who really enjoy the concept of immortality, I think it would be more interesting than creating a division between immortal Alicorns and mortal Alicorns. And I don't really think the show will stretch so far to show the end of the Mane 6's lifes and the future of Equestria, it's probably just going to end with an "...and they lived happly ever after", and maybe the immortality of Twilight Sparkle won't even be an issue mentioned in the show, so it's probably only going to stay in headcanons, and all Alicorns being immortal is going to be mine until proven wrong by the show.
Since all are immortal why do we see Cadence ageing the same as other ponies? o.O
Also Twilight is different from Celestia by their place in society. You don't see neither Luna or Celestia resolving problems that Twilight has, neither you see Twilight take a more back seat role and do more important formal tasks like the other princesses. No other pony has yet seen Twilight and go "It's princess Twilight!" but if Celestia shows up, bring on the red carpet.
About Cadence ageing, it could fit the trope Immortality Begins At Twenty (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImmortalityBeginsAtTwenty). Besides, her ageing and growth seems different from normal ponies, as she is different than other ponies. It could be that she hasn't aged, but her body gradatively changed with the alicornization, something that can still happen with the new Alicorn Princess Twilight Sparkle.
And yes, Twilight is different from Celestia in society, and as I've said, it's something that annoys me. As said by Digibrony in his last video, Twilight princesshood couldn't be more ignored than citiziens denying her a cab ride in Manehattan. She isn't doing anything as a princess to the point where we can even forget she is a princess until we notice she has wings. But even if she isn't equal to Celestia in the society's point of view, it doesn't mean she doesn't have the same potential Celestia has as an Alicorn. But that is something the writers need to remember while writing the episodes: Twilight is now a Princess, and even if she is the same pony inside and for her friends, somethings need to be different. With greater power comes greater responsibility, and with princesshood comes greater fame, visibility, respect, admiration and so on.
Quote from: dynamite on 2014 Jan 03, 20:11:56
Just something to tickle the mind. Both Celestia and Luna appear as opposing ends, light and dark.
Yeah no. Celestia and Luna correspond to day and night. Which are not opposite ends, they are two sides of the same coin.
Quote from: Night Pony on 2014 Jan 04, 04:50:55
How is Twilight dark? o.O
Sure they are maybe opposites (Love and Friendship) but they cannot take Celestia's and Luna's place. Cadence and Twilight are not born as alicorns and such have regular life spans while The sisters outlive many generations. Also Cadence and Twilight are not nearly as strong as Luna and Celestia and I doubt they will ever come close to their level of magic.
Who says Celestia and Luna were born as Alicorn? Cadence and Twilight were made Alicorn, but who says Alicorns are born? Judging from the fact that we haven't seen a sustainable population of Alicorns, I think it's reasonable to assume that they are made. By what means is still confusing on how.
Quote from: Weatherboy1 on 2014 Jan 05, 14:49:37
Who says Celestia and Luna were born as Alicorn? Cadence and Twilight were made Alicorn, but who says Alicorns are born? Judging from the fact that we haven't seen a sustainable population of Alicorns, I think it's reasonable to assume that they are made. By what means is still confusing on how.
Quote from: Night Pony on 2014 Jan 05, 04:10:57
Well they weren't made into Alicorns like Cadence and Twilight. Either they were born (which is more likely in my opinion) or there is a third way to become an alicorn.
Why all the claims that Twilight only became an alicorn to sell more toys? It was always Lauren Faust's intention that she would someday succeed Celestia. I would have thought that statement would put this nonsense to rest.
As for people not treating Twilight like a princess, she hasn't been given any official duties yet. Apart from her coronation ceremony and the summer sun celebration (both of which took place in Canterlot) nobody who doesn't already know her is likely to recognize her. It seems as though the old castle in the Everfree Forest is being refurbished by the mane six, so presumably Twilight will move in there at the end of season 4. Perhaps then, in season 5, people will actually recognize her.
As Dave Polsky mentioned on True Equestria Radio, Twilight isn't really princess of anything at the moment. I expect throughout season 4 we'll see her getting prepared for a new life.
Well I can see Twilight and even Cadance at some point learning how to move the sun and moon and then have responsibilities for changing night and day when say Celestia and Luna are off on a business trip or vacation. Could be an interesting take.
QuoteWhy all the claims that Twilight only became an alicorn to sell more toys? It was always Lauren Faust's intention that she would someday succeed Celestia. I would have thought that statement would put this nonsense to rest.
Because with the exception of the opening, nothing has changed literally. She is the same pony with the same duties with the same social standing. She is just another pony...only that she isn't.
QuoteAs for people not treating Twilight like a princess, she hasn't been given any official duties yet. Apart from her coronation ceremony and the summer sun celebration (both of which took place in Canterlot) nobody who doesn't already know her is likely to recognize her. It seems as though the old castle in the Everfree Forest is being refurbished by the mane six, so presumably Twilight will move in there at the end of season 4. Perhaps then, in season 5, people will actually recognize her.
Why isn't she tasked with royal duties? o.O She is an official princess of
Equestria. She should be doing royal jobs and stuff like getting a cab shouldn't be a problem. Everypony in Equestria should know her. Why is she and her friends cleaning the castle? Why they need a cab? As a princess she should be command of ponies and should be able to tell them to restore the castle. Also she should have a royal carriage that gives her a lift whenever and to wherever she needs to.
Quote
As Dave Polsky mentioned on True Equestria Radio, Twilight isn't really princess of anything at the moment. I expect throughout season 4 we'll see her getting prepared for a new life.
Why isn't she? She did turn into an alicorn. She was officially crowned as a Princess. If she was just going to continue her every day life then why was she made into a princess? Why has she received wings? o.O
Quote from: dynamite on 2014 Jan 06, 05:50:23
Well I can see Twilight and even Cadance at some point learning how to move the sun and moon and then have responsibilities for changing night and day when say Celestia and Luna are off on a business trip or vacation. Could be an interesting take.
Could but I doubt they have reached the magical power of such thing. Also Princess is a job that has no vacations, so Luna and Celestia being constantly there it just seems pointless for them to take control of the celestial bodies. Also Cadence has enough to worry about with her empire.
On the plus side we can conclude from the reactions of the ponies so far to Twilight that Alicorns is not something unique or restricted to princesses.
I think we are seeing things a little different here. In my point of view, she hasn't been made an Alicorn to become a princess, but she became a princess because she turned into an Alicorn. I think the alicornization was something Twilight achieved on her own after acquiring enough knowledge, power and, mainly, wisdom. Because being an Alicorn is recognized as being wiser and more powerful, they are made leaders. That's why only by being an Alicorn should be reason enough for her to be more respected in society, even if ponies don't know about her coronation.
So, right now, she has the status of a princess, but because it wasn't something prepared, even if Celestia probably was sure it was going to happen, they actually don't need another princess. Everything is in complete control, and Twilight can live her life normally as she chose to. But that is something that must be only temporary, until Celestia organize her stuff and find a place to put Twilight in the political world of Equestria, and that's what I'm waiting for.
Probably Twilight doesn't have any carriage to take her to places and servants to do things for her just because she doesn't want to. She'd rather fix the castle by herself and with her friends than ask others to do so.
Quote from: ArtVeigar on 2014 Jan 06, 15:51:32
Probably Twilight doesn't have any carriage to take her to places and servants to do things for her just because she doesn't want to. She'd rather fix the castle by herself and with her friends than ask others to do so.
This is a valid point. Twilight hasn't gotten used to her new status yet and doesn't like being called "Princess Twilight Sparkle" all the time. She certainly
would rather do stuff with her friends than order minions around.
But if they didn't need another princess then her entire coronation was just for show and completely pointless. Why make a new princess when it's not needed? o.O Is she a backup? A spare tire that is to be used only when one of the main ones blow out? o.O
She shouldn't need to ask. Celestia should've ordered the restoration rather than telling Twilight to restore the castle.
Didn't she in Equestria girls got used to her new title and role of a leader? o.O Then the question is why did she accept the princess status if she wasn't going to use it and doesn't like it? Because her teacher wanted it? She could've easily refused to become a princess and continue her life as it was.
Becoming a leader isn't about what you would like to do but what you need to do. Maybe Twilight prefers to do things on her own but it would be best for the entire country if she focused on more important tasks and not cleaning rubble.
Quote from: Night Pony on 2014 Jan 08, 07:06:19
But if they didn't need another princess then her entire coronation was just for show and completely pointless. Why make a new princess when it's not needed? o.O Is she a backup? A spare tire that is to be used only when one of the main ones blow out? o.O
Because she became an Alicorn. As I've said in my theory, an Alicorn is a being considered to be wise and powerful, and because of that, they are made into leaders. Celestia probably organized Twilight's coronation to show the world that another Alicorn has appeared, to show the world that Twilight is now equal to her and the other two Alicorn princesses. But because Celestia hasn't prepared anything for Twilight yet, she is currently on hold, so you could call her a backup, but I'd rather consider her a new support, who will be put in an important position in the actual government of Equestria or given something to rule soon.
Quote from: Night Pony on 2014 Jan 08, 07:06:19
She shouldn't need to ask. Celestia should've ordered the restoration rather than telling Twilight to restore the castle.
Didn't she in Equestria girls got used to her new title and role of a leader? o.O Then the question is why did she accept the princess status if she wasn't going to use it and doesn't like it? Because her teacher wanted it? She could've easily refused to become a princess and continue her life as it was.
I don't think she doesn't want it, but it took her by surprise. She wasn't ready to take such a responsibility so soon in her life.
Quote from: Night Pony on 2014 Jan 08, 07:06:19
Becoming a leader isn't about what you would like to do but what you need to do. Maybe Twilight prefers to do things on her own but it would be best for the entire country if she focused on more important tasks and not cleaning rubble.
As I've said, she is currently on hold while Celestia and Luna prepare her new position and she ready herself to assume it. Meanwhile, there is no problem in occupying her time with activities with her friends, the ones she will miss more after assuming the responsibilities of a leader.
Quote from: ArtVeigar on 2014 Jan 08, 14:29:25
Because she became an Alicorn. As I've said in my theory, an Alicorn is a being considered to be wise and powerful, and because of that, they are made into leaders. Celestia probably organized Twilight's coronation to show the world that another Alicorn has appeared, to show the world that Twilight is now equal to her and the other two Alicorn princesses. But because Celestia hasn't prepared anything for Twilight yet, she is currently on hold, so you could call her a backup, but I'd rather consider her a new support, who will be put in an important position in the actual government of Equestria or given something to rule soon.
The reaction of the ponies or the lack of one towards alicorns disproves your theory. If they are such why are they treating her like a normal pony? o.O => Alicorns are not so unique and rare as we claim them to be.
Plus Cadence is also recent alicorn and Twilight should not be needed to be made as an example.
Quote from: Night Pony on 2014 Jan 08, 14:36:35
The reaction of the ponies or the lack of one towards alicorns disproves your theory. If they are such why are they treating her like a normal pony? o.O => Alicorns are not so unique and rare as we claim them to be.
Alicorns are as unique and rare as we claim them to be. Otherwise more should be known by now. From what was shown in the season three finale and the Crystal Heart Spell book, you need to do something really special to become an Alicorn. And if they weren't as unique and rare, the writers wouldn't place the only ones known in the highest positions possible. That's another reason Twilight's alicornization seems to be only to sell toys, because she is the only alicorn that doesn't cause any reaction in the overall public. It's like they don't even notice her wings.
Quote from: Night Pony on 2014 Jan 08, 14:36:35
Plus Cadence is also recent alicorn and Twilight should not be needed to be made as an example.
Twilight isn't an example. She is someone who achieved the greatest achievement a pony could achieve and received the highest status a pony can have as a reward.
Quote from: ArtVeigar on 2014 Jan 08, 14:52:05
Alicorns are as unique and rare as we claim them to be. Otherwise more should be known by now. From what was shown in the season three finale and the Crystal Heart Spell book, you need to do something really special to become an Alicorn. And if they weren't as unique and rare, the writers wouldn't place the only ones known in the highest positions possible. That's another reason Twilight's alicornization seems to be only to sell toys, because she is the only alicorn that doesn't cause any reaction in the overall public. It's like they don't even notice her wings.
By that logic there is only one zebra, two griffons, a few mules and the majority of the population of Equestria is female. The fact that the show is focusing on normal ponies in Ponyville doesn't speak for every other place.
Also they were chosen to be the leaders of the nation. The fact that they are alicorns has nothing to do with it. Sombra for example is a prince but is not an alicorn, same with Shining. The leaders of that country that were visiting (I forgot the name, the ones tall as Celestia) neither had wings nor horns.
Or maybe they do notice them but they aren't anything to be worth reaction. Maybe it's like reacting to a pegasi that s/he has wings, a unicorn that s/he has a horn.
I said Alicorns are made leaders, but I've never said only Alicorns could be leader. What makes sense if Alicorns are rare and unique. There are less Alicorns than countries and empires to be ruled.
It is possible indeed for more Alicorns to exist, or even be common, but I don't think that, if they were that common, the show wouldn't give such emphasis to Twilight's alicornization and place the only ones known in the most important positions in Equestria. I think the show is trying to make it pretty clear, even if still not a fact, that Alicorns are rare, unique and special. Well, at least they were until the end of the season four premier.
Quote from: ArtVeigar on 2014 Jan 08, 15:23:34
I said Alicorns are made leaders, but I've never said only Alicorns could be leader. What makes sense if Alicorns are rare and unique. There are less Alicorns than countries and empires to be ruled.
Do you have anything to support those claims?
Quote from: ArtVeigar on 2014 Jan 08, 15:23:34It is possible indeed for more Alicorns to exist, or even be common, but I don't think that, if they were that common, the show wouldn't give such emphasis to Twilight's alicornization and place the only ones known in the most important positions in Equestria. I think the show is trying to make it pretty clear, even if still not a fact, that Alicorns are rare, unique and special. Well, at least they were until the end of the season four premier.
Or they were giving emphasis that she grew as a character and such rather than sprouting wings. The rest is just your opinion and headcannon.
Quote from: Night Pony on 2014 Jan 08, 15:32:42
Quote from: ArtVeigar on 2014 Jan 08, 15:23:34
I said Alicorns are made leaders, but I've never said only Alicorns could be leader. What makes sense if Alicorns are rare and unique. There are less Alicorns than countries and empires to be ruled.
Do you have anything to support those claims?
No, I don't. It's a possible conclusion based on my previous assumptions, and all arguments that support this possibility are in my past posts. Sorry if it sounded like I was stating a fact.
Quote from: Night Pony on 2014 Jan 08, 15:32:42
Quote from: ArtVeigar on 2014 Jan 08, 15:23:34It is possible indeed for more Alicorns to exist, or even be common, but I don't think that, if they were that common, the show wouldn't give such emphasis to Twilight's alicornization and place the only ones known in the most important positions in Equestria. I think the show is trying to make it pretty clear, even if still not a fact, that Alicorns are rare, unique and special. Well, at least they were until the end of the season four premier.
Or they were giving emphasis that she grew as a character and such rather than sprouting wings. The rest is just your opinion and headcannon.
And so they decided to make her an Alicorn to give emphasis to her character growth. So, instead of trying to make it clear that Alicorns are rare and unique, they already assumed it was clear. Otherwise, her transformation could be taken as just an everyday thing in Equestria, what would actually take a lot of the emphasis rather than giving.
Quote from: ArtVeigar on 2014 Jan 08, 17:34:23
And so they decided to make her an Alicorn to give emphasis to her character growth. So, instead of trying to make it clear that Alicorns are rare and unique, they already assumed it was clear. Otherwise, her transformation could be taken as just an everyday thing in Equestria, what would actually take a lot of the emphasis rather than giving.
A lot of things could be assumed clear and being a fact but remember that a lot of people denied that alicorns were named alicorns but instead winged pegasi until they actually mentioned it in the show. We may assume something for granted and clear as day but it takes only one episode to change it all of it.
Yep, I'm pretty aware of that. But until that moment comes, the moment where something is made canon, we can only assume what is most probable or even what we would like it to be. If there is still a chance for it to be true, than why not? It's fun to disscuss the possibilities either way.
I like to debate on anything regarding alicorns. :P
I just like to debate. It's really amusing to see how others are thinking about the matter, to complete what you've thought with things you might have missed and spot any flaw your idea might have, to make a more solid idea. Even if a conclusion isn't reached, both parts open their minds to new possible conclusions.
It was a nice debate here, and I hope we can keep it going as we get more information about this matter. And even discuss about other things in the near future, too. ^-^
Welp, I got nothing more on this topics to add/debate. :P
@night pony...I couldn't say that love and friendship are opposites. Friendship is a form of love. But it is an interesting idea. If we say twilight represents selfless love for friends/family Ethos and Cadence is the embodiment of Eros, which is the somewhat more intense, I love you as I love myself connection between lovers and spouses.
In that respect Cadence is the pony of dark, Since Eros needs an infusion of agape or enduring love to not warp into something perverse. Shining armor might be Agape(?) and the way him and Cadence work together makes them very pure and strong.
Ethos is the basic love any relationship is based off of and its friendship in its purest form, It's even to go so far as to selflessly love your enemies ^-^ so since twilight is the embodiment of the magic of friendship she has to be the pony of light.
philosophy in ponies...gotta love it
Quote from: Aerial Perspective on 2014 Jan 11, 13:10:53
@night pony...I couldn't say that love and friendship are opposites. Friendship is a form of love. But it is an interesting idea. If we say twilight represents selfless love for friends/family Ethos and Cadence is the embodiment of Eros, which is the somewhat more intense, I love you as I love myself connection between lovers and spouses.
In that respect Cadence is the pony of dark, Since Eros needs an infusion of agape or enduring love to not warp into something perverse. Shining armor might be Agape(?) and the way him and Cadence work together makes them very pure and strong.
Ethos is the basic love any relationship is based off of and its friendship in its purest form, It's even to go so far as to selflessly love your enemies ^-^ so since twilight is the embodiment of the magic of friendship she has to be the pony of light.
philosophy in ponies...gotta love it
I guess these descriptions fits better Cadence as Ethos and Chrysallis as Eros, as Chrysallis desires the love so much that she tried to get it forcefully, while Cadence, in the "Crystal Heart Spell" book, is said to have converted a witch into somepony good with her love.
Well, as of the Season Four finale, I think you people have gotten your answers. ^-^