The new xp system

Started by Night Striker, 2018 Aug 16, 04:34:07

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Night Striker

When I heard that LoE was going to revamp the xp system and introduce more skills/talents to grind on, I was hyped to get back to playing LoE again and so I headed out to the Evershade, later to be joined with a friend, to grind out my level and talents again. I've fought numerous monsters of varying types and levels in the Evershade with my friend, and after seeing just how much xp I was given after each kill, I don't think I want to even touch LoE's new xp system with a long stick. I know there is a post announcing the "fixes" of the xp system, but from what I've seen, this really doesn't seem so much of a fix but just a way to hinder players from grinding their original levels again.

Like I get re-scaling the xp curve for player levels, I'm totally fine with that, but keeping the feature that awards xp based on the skills that you use instead of by kill and then nerfing the xp given by monsters, on top of a new giant xp wall, really just kills the game for me.

For those who are confused about what I'm talking about; before this update, each monster had their own base xp you could get by attacking them. For example, the level 50 pegasi golems used to have a base xp of around 1000 xp, and then it would change/scale to how often you use a certain type of attack, so if you used more Partying skills than Combat, the xp would get divided between both types of attacks and then get scaled in proportion to how much you used Partying and Combat skills. But there is an apparent flaw in the combat system (or at least I consider it a flaw) where if you happen to kill multiple enemies at the same time, you would only get xp as if you killed one.

However with the "fixes", came the nerfing of xp given by the monsters I fought. I've fought the level 24 timberwolves, the level 28 hornets, the level 32 and 50 lantern, the level 35 and 45 Niad, and the level 48 and 50 Pegasi Golems, so I really tried my best to fight a variety of monsters available in the Evershade, just to see that they all generally gave the same xp. I know I haven't fought all the monsters that were in the Evershade, but when a level 50 monster gives the same xp as a level 24 monster, there's not much hope to see if there is any difference of xp for the monsters I missed. I also know that the dragons give roughly double the amount xp of the other monsters (according to a friend who went dragon hunting with others), but that still seems kind of a disappointment when one of the toughest monster in-game only gives you double the xp of a level 23 Timberwolf.

I've tried to like the new xp system, but all I see, at the end of the day, is an update that highly discourages any sort of leveling through combat, especially solo play.......and this really just kills me on the inside that a game I used to like and grind on came up with a new system that looks like it was only designed to stop players from leveling too fast in every way they can think of. After the OAR, as I was trying to level up in the forest, I used to like figuring out which monster I would grind next for its xp and seeing the progression of my character being able to defeat these monsters who were once too tough because of the level difference and seeing how much xp the next stronger monster gave........but this update really ruined it for me.

Spoiler: show
It also probably doesn't help that I'm super salty that I somehow got screwed when the update came. Instead of being level 23 when I logged in, I ended up being level 18 and when I mentioned it on the LoE Discord server, I was mostly brushed off by everyone on the topic. This screenshot was taken after the level up message said I leveled up to 19.

 


While I may not be part of LoE staff, I always try to help others who might have problems in LoE the best I can because I want others to share my enjoyment of the game. ^-^

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Fluttershy Cloud

Well, the higher the level of the enemy, normally they will give higher xp. However, you might see that they are not giving as much because that's probably your level is too low compared to the enemy. For example, if you fight the lvl50 dragons at lvl23, you'll get around 600xp. But the xp awarded increases with your level, when you are lvl45, it will give you around 1400xp. On the other hand, like lvl24 timberwolves, they give you around 300xp, but it will not increase beyond that when your level increases too high compared to them.

But other than that, the revamped xp curve is kind of ridiculous, it is 15 times more than before. Only the most determined and dedicated player will reach lvl50, or wait a few years later when the developers implement other ways to earn more xp outside of combat.
"Everypony's contribution is important, no matter how small. If you just keep your head high, do your best, and believe in yourself, anything can happen!"
- Fluttershy

CMC Scootaloo

This is something that is already explained in the news about the changed xp curve already. From my own little experience with MMORPGs prior to LoE, I know that MMOs have areas in which you can only get up to a certain level, before you have to move on to a different area with stronger monsters in order to level even higher. Which is basically the norm for RPGs anyway, different areas = stronger monsters.
That's very much the norm for RPGs and like this for decades.
Now, with LoE, it is like this that the current regions that are available in the game are only designed to bring you to Level 20 (+ a few more levels, perhaps).
The regions that are designed to bring you to even higher levels, are not implemented yet. Right now, you can't get higher than Level 20+, because the monsters are simply not strong enough. All you could do if you want to forcefully level-up right now, is to just keep grinding and level-up further with that little amount of exp. you get, but that would mean you keep grinding for ages.
Which, as I said, the current regions are not designed for, so it's not recommended to attempt that gargantuan task.
The only thing that sounds a little odd to me is that there are still monsters in Everfree that have Level 50, a much higher level than you can reasonably have right now. But I assume this will get balanced eventually, too, and the monsters in the current regions will have a much lower max. level.
But other than that, all of this has been explained already. You are simply not supposed to level up that high anymore, now that the exp. curve is re-balanced and works as intended:


QuoteFor context, the areas currently available in the Open Access Release, in their intended final state, is expected to be enough to guide the player through the first 20 or so levels of their character's progression, when compared to the full scope of the game.

https://forum.legendsofequestria.com/index.php?topic=17937
You always wanted to meet Scootaloo? Then be on the lookout for her in Equestria, she is galloping all over the realm!


Night Striker

Quote from: Fluttershy Cloud on 2018 Aug 16, 12:56:16However, you might see that they are not giving as much because that's probably your level is too low compared to the enemy.

This is probably the main gripe I have with the new system. It kinda removes the idea of x risk x reward (with the exception of dragons) since it feels like it's not rewarding to go after a monster that is a much higher level than you, and that you seem to hit a wall of how much xp you can get fighting anything that isn't a dragon.

Quote from: Fluttershy Cloud on 2018 Aug 16, 12:56:16But other than that, the revamped xp curve is kind of ridiculous, it is 15 times more than before. Only the most determined and dedicated player will reach lvl50, or wait a few years later when the developers implement other ways to earn more xp outside of combat.

Honestly I wouldn't mind the new xp curve they gave if they kept the old xp system where the monsters each had their own individual xp values they gave, instead of this "you gotta be a certain level" to get certain amounts of xp of the same monster as you said, the xp of the dragon scales with your level, which I find kinda silly that you get more xp as your level gets closer to the dragon.

Quote from: CMC Scootaloo on 2018 Aug 16, 13:39:15From my own little experience with MMORPGs prior to LoE, I know that MMOs have areas in which you can only get up to a certain level, before you have to move on to a different area with stronger monsters in order to level even higher. Which is basically the norm for RPGs anyway, different areas = stronger monsters.
That's very much the norm for RPGs and like this for decades.
Now, with LoE, it is like this that the current regions that are available in the game are only designed to bring you to Level 20 (+ a few more levels, perhaps).
The regions that are designed to bring you to even higher levels, are not implemented yet.

Right, but from my own experience in MMOs, past and current, some of them do have large open areas where enemy levels range from lvl 1 to level 30, 40, 50 or whatever high it wants to be, where each set of monsters would get their own little corner/area, a very similar idea to what the Evershade originally was and the "different areas = stronger monsters" concept you stated, where you could find varying levels of monsters in their own specific area, like the lvl 18 living bushes that has it's own area near the opening of Evershade, or the single lvl 45 Niad that has an entire riverside to itself, or the dragon nest of high level dragons, or the two different areas where the lvl 48 and lvl 50 pegasi golems live, but with the changes of xp, it seems like a massive oversight to have monsters have much higher levels than you but seem to give barely any xp. New areas really don't need to be implemented to get higher xp, it would be nice, but not necessary. The Everfree forest depicted in the show, shows the forest as some highly secretive and dangerous place for ponies to be in, and before the update, it held true as the high level of enemies made them seem like a threat and seem like they all had their own territory/area in the Evershade, but with the new update, the concept of high level = high threat kinda got thrown out the window, except for dragons.

Quote from: CMC Scootaloo on 2018 Aug 16, 13:39:15The only thing that sounds a little odd to me is that there are still monsters in Everfree that have Level 50, a much higher level than you can reasonably have right now.

Well considering the moonlight/sunlight armor requirement got changed to lvl 30, it seems like a massive oversight that the monster's levels were not adjusted to reflect their threat. After all, you would expect that a lvl 50 Lantern or a lvl 48 Pegasi Golem to overpower someone wearing lvl 30 armor, but a majority of monsters in the Evershade become pushovers if you wear the moonlight/sunlight armor, making monster levels above 30 almost pointless, with the exception of dragons of course. 


While I may not be part of LoE staff, I always try to help others who might have problems in LoE the best I can because I want others to share my enjoyment of the game. ^-^

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CMC Scootaloo

2018 Aug 16, 18:50:41 #4 Last Edit: 2018 Aug 16, 18:54:01 by CMC Scootaloo
What you describe here is only one way to do it. Implementing new areas with new monsters that have higher levels is something that is better, because it means the game can develop slowly and that we will have much more of it in the end, as we would have if you could get to Level 50 right now.
It's like with WoW, where every new update or add-on brings new areas to explore, new monsters to defeat and a new maximum level to reach.
Doing so means that there will be more to explore and to discover. Technically, the development of the game could continue forever that way, as long as there are ideas to expand the world.
That WoW does it so is the reason why it can grow and deliver new challenges, adventures and stories for more than ten years now and I wouldn't mind if "Legends of Equestria" will also last that long because of doing it the same way.
You should start seeing the good sides of this system and appreciate it. It's going to pay off a lot in the future.

And for the monster levels, as I said already, the levels of the monsters in the currently available regions will probably get lowered in a future update, to be fitting to the max level the players can reach right now.
You always wanted to meet Scootaloo? Then be on the lookout for her in Equestria, she is galloping all over the realm!


Night Striker

Quote from: CMC Scootaloo on 2018 Aug 16, 18:50:41What you describe here is only one way to do it.

Yes, and I only mention it because this was how leveling worked before this update and during the times when open weekend events were still a thing. I can still think of other ways that LoE could've done the xp thing better, as I will explain another way below using a game you refer to in your post.

Quote from: CMC Scootaloo on 2018 Aug 16, 18:50:41It's like with WoW, where every new update or add-on brings new areas to explore, new monsters to defeat and a new maximum level to reach.

There is one thing I want to emphasize about this statement; the level cap rising after each update/expansion. This is something that LoE could've easily done, but didn't.

If you want to use WoW and any similar MMOs as an example of things gone right, then wouldn't it have been a better idea if LoE introduces a level cap at level 30 while keeping the current xp curve, since the moonlight/sunlight armor is essentially end-game armor, reduce all the monsters in the evershade to levels to 20-30(only bringing this up again to make a point) and then increase the level cap as more areas/enemies get implemented? It would better reflect the idea that the game only intends to "guide the player through the first 20 or so levels" as mentioned in the post announcing all this stuff and with the cap at lvl 30, they can slowly increase that cap back to level 50 as more areas/monsters get implemented.

Heck, you could even argue that LoE didn't even need a whole new xp curve and should've waited till they could implement a new area, and then increased the level cap when they were ready to release it, but currently it seems that LoE is still stuck on the idea that lvl 50 should be the max level for players since they released a whole new xp curve and reworked how xp gain worked for dedicated players to get back there, and then changed the requirement for the current end-game armor to lvl 30. And yes I know there are monsters/NPCs that are higher level than 50, but in my experience in MMOs, it's not uncommon to see certain monsters have higher levels than what a player can reach.

Quote from: CMC Scootaloo on 2018 Aug 16, 18:50:41You should start seeing the good sides of this system and appreciate it. It's going to pay off a lot in the future.

Which is what exactly? Unfortunately, the more we compare LoE to other MMOs, the more flaws I see in the system that it implemented and how the MMOs we compare it to are doing it much better.

In short, the ways you mentioned WoW doing for updates is a better method than whatever LoE is trying to do, since:

1. They really could've just increased the level cap once more content was available and left the original system alone, saving time and effort wasted on re-balancing everything.

2. Or they could keep the new xp curve and balance and introduced a lower level cap, then slowly increase that cap back to 50 as more content gets implemented.

From what I see as we compare LoE with more and more MMOs, I think the dev team should take notes of how other MMO handles their updates. I mean, was it really necessary to have the LoE team spend a lot of time and effort to rework an entire system, when much simpler and more effective options were available?

Spoiler: show
This is just a side note, but now that I think about it, it does kind of baffles me that LoE is only now addressing the xp stuff, like in the past open weekends in past years, there have been players, like me, who were able to reach max level within those 2-3 day time period and it's only now that fix it since it's technically been a known issue for a few years already if they still kept the same xp system as the open weekend events.


While I may not be part of LoE staff, I always try to help others who might have problems in LoE the best I can because I want others to share my enjoyment of the game. ^-^

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Sir Dead Puppy

I would love for them to post new areas with new monsters but this is a play for free fan made game,and they do amazing work for what they got but to think this is going to be like WoW with million dollar budgets and a giant team of paid programmers,releasing giant updates every year is a pie in the sky dream.I am cool with the new xp curve but they made it super difficult to grind like I have resigned myself to the fact that its going take months and months of smashing the same enemy's to get back to 50 I DONT CARE WHAT ANY ONE SAYS  i want to be a lvl 50 charter ,I competed in the equestrian games and i need all my skills to be maxed out ,i will never be happy at lvl 30 so this update has made a lot of new work for me and they made that work a heck of a lot harder and it killed combat in this game ....some will say well this game is not about combat but meeting people and rp and stuff ...cool ....I ,myself like combat I enjoyed fighting but ye gods the rewards are not there anymore when you spends hours killing the same glitchey golums  to only gain a single lvl maybe two the frustration is real I am with Night striker on this I get they wanted to make it a slower pace to lvl 50 that lvl 30 is the new lvl 50 is what i believe i heard..that the old system of lvl was for the open accesses weekends or what ever but they still knee caped the options for getting to 50 the only way now is just brutal hard work or to wait for some new area that is down the road in a year maybe and i highly doubt any new area they make will give us the option to go from lvl  20-30 all the way back up to 50

they are a good team the ponies that make this game but that does not mean i agree with what they have done ..its frustrating. There are good sides to this as well, they added a crafting system ....cool..ill get to that some day ....and people are playing more .....because it takes hours and hours of work to get any kind of lvl up ....thats my issue right there

CMC Scootaloo

2018 Aug 18, 10:06:36 #7 Last Edit: 2018 Aug 18, 10:09:16 by CMC Scootaloo
@Night Striker

I'm sorry, but I can't follow your latest post..... They already did what you suggested there. They introduced a level cap already, it's 20 now. That's why you have such a hard time levelling up higher than that: You are not supposed to yet.
Just like Vanilla WoW let you go up to Level 30 (I think), Vanilla LoE lets you now get up to Level 20.
Further updates will increase that level cap then, just like WoW increased its level cap with new expansions. They're doing exactly what you said:

Quote2. Or they could keep the new xp curve and balance and introduced a lower level cap, then slowly increase that cap back to 50 as more content gets implemented.

It's fairly easy to see what they are going for here. I'm having a hard time seeing what your issue with the exp. system is..... :s Just give them time.


@Sir Dead Puppy

QuoteI would love for them to post new areas with new monsters but this is a play for free fan made game,and they do amazing work for what they got but to think this is going to be like WoW with million dollar budgets and a giant team of paid programmers,releasing giant updates every year is a pie in the sky dream.

I don't know how massive the updates for WoW are, because I never really played that game, but I also didn't say that they necessarily have to make huge updates exactly once a year. Some stuff takes longer and that's fine. All I want is that they continue for years to come. I just had a bird singing it to me that the team of "My Little Investigations" gave up and will not release Case 2 and that they have cancelled development. :( I just want the LoE team to not give up, no matter how long they need for updates.
With that said, I wouldn't put it past them to have one big update each year either..... I have seen how fast and in what little timeframe they implemented Cloudsdale (January 2014), the from scratch re-designed Everfree Forest (January 2014), the Heartlands (August 2014), the re-structured Ponyville (January 2015) and the Crystal Empire (January 2015). Two new regions and one re-structured region in only one year of development after they already released a new region and a completely re-designed another one. That's fast for a free game made by volunteers.
Not to mention the Nightmare Night update, the Hearth's Warming Eve update, the Winter Wrap Up update and now the Festival of Lights and Crafting update and all the things they added..... Especially the recent one. Four big updates in less than a year of Open Beta!
The dev team of LoE works fast and efficient and they are the most motivated, most dedicated and most organized and professional developer team I've ever come across in the fandom. The fact that LoE is the only major MLP: FiM fan-game project that is still going and that survived all these years since 2012 and just keeps kicking and growing, while other major pony game projects died around it, speaks for itself.
I would not put it past them to have one large update each year, they have what it takes, that's for sure.
But even if updates take longer than that, I won't mind. I just want LoE to last. This year, next year, after the end of G4 and far into G5..... If it stays with us, I don't mind a longer development for new updates.
It's the only real and accurate Equestria simulation we have, so if it just sticks around, I will be satisfied and happy.<3
You always wanted to meet Scootaloo? Then be on the lookout for her in Equestria, she is galloping all over the realm!


Sir Dead Puppy

Best scoots I think the dev team is awesome as well and there is no lvl cap except for lvl 50 but the complaints we are making is that to get past lvl 30 is crazy insanely hard that requires days and days of grinding ,endless grinding on nerfed monsters with nerfed combat skills Night striker was pointing this out that there were other ways to go about this and i agree .The team is great but they made combat a real pain in the flank for me cause I am not stopping till I am lvl 50 again in all my skills and talents

Night Striker

2018 Aug 18, 19:04:12 #9 Last Edit: 2018 Aug 18, 20:23:28 by Night Striker Reason: More details and clearer format
Quote from: CMC Scootaloo on 2018 Aug 18, 10:06:36I'm sorry, but I can't follow your latest post..... They already did what you suggested there. They introduced a level cap already, it's 20 now. That's why you have such a hard time levelling up higher than that: You are not supposed to yet.
Just like Vanilla WoW let you go up to Level 30 (I think), Vanilla LoE lets you now get up to Level 20.
Further updates will increase that level cap then, just like WoW increased its level cap with new expansions. They're doing exactly what you said:

It's fairly easy to see what they are going for here. I'm having a hard time seeing what your issue with the exp. system is..... :s Just give them time.

No, they haven't, they did something else entirely as Puppy pointed out. The meaning of "level cap" is the maximum level a player can attain on a character. If the level cap was truly at 20, it shouldn't be possible to level up past 20 but LoE still has the level cap at 50 for no apparent reason. The whole "you're not supposed to yet" argument you keep trying to explain really doesn't work in this context you know; after all if I'm not supposed to get to level 50, LoE shouldn't let me get to 50. If LoE truly wanted to stop players from leveling past the content they've created, they would make the maximum level be whatever they think their content would go up to right now, with this case being at level "20 or so" or at 30 where the moonlight/sunlight armors are at, instead of keeping it at 50.

As for WoW, I haven't played WoW much either, but I imagine that the updates that increase level cap were meant for those at the max level prior to their updates.  This is something that would seem like a much better system than what LoE currently has.

Scoots, when we last talked in-game about the airshow event for the Equestria Games and how you wouldn't be able to level all your skills despite me mentioning that it only takes a day or so to level them to max, you said you wanted to take the game at your own pace instead, which is totally fine and your playstyle, but there are others like me and Puppy who want to be able to get to max level with reasonable means, not just their characters but all of their talents as well since it can give a sense of accomplishment, who love the combat in the game, but got ruined by nerfing every little thing about it that made it fun. So if anything, I think you have to understand that there are also others who experience or play LoE in a totally different way from you.

As active as I am on the forums, there is a reason why I don't normally participate in community events, like the weekly hide and seek, weddings, or just any other silly events and it's because combat and grinding was a core aspect that made LoE fun for me, and with the new exp system, it just ruined a few of the only reasons I play LoE. I'm not entirely sure just how often you do combat in LoE, considering you were a somewhat low level when I saw you in-game last and you mentioned your skills were not leveled either, but making huge changes in one of the core features of LoE to have a somewhat unreasonable nerf and re-balance in the exp system while still keeping max level at 50 really hurts.

When fighting enemies, you would expect to get more exp if your level was low and the enemy's level gets higher and the monsters get tougher right? Well with the new balance, for everything that isn't a dragon, no matter how much of a higher level they are from you or how much tougher they are than you, they will give the same exp, this is what appalls me in this update. You decide to risk your life to fight something a much higher level than you, something that almost killed you even, and what do you get? The same mediocre exp as something that is barely above your level and can't even out-damage your health regen. It's frustrating that you can take a risk but that risk barely gets you any satisfying reward from it.


While I may not be part of LoE staff, I always try to help others who might have problems in LoE the best I can because I want others to share my enjoyment of the game. ^-^

Want to be in a herd? PM to get more details to join the NLR!

CMC Scootaloo

Quote from: Night Striker on 2018 Aug 18, 19:04:12No, they haven't, they did something else entirely as Puppy pointed out. The meaning of "level cap" is the maximum level a player can attain on a character. If the level cap was truly at 20, it shouldn't be possible to level up past 20 but LoE still has the level cap at 50 for no apparent reason.

I understand what you want to say, but this is a minor technicality. Whether they make it entirely impossible to level higher than 20 or just give you so little exp. after you reached that level that it's barely possible to level up further, comes down to the same in the end:

20 is, as of now, the intended max. level for the current regions and as high as it is recommended to level up right now.

Of course they could go and make it completely impossible to get higher than 20 in another update, but even if they would do that, there wouldn't be that much difference then. I think by simply making it so hard to level up higher than 20 that's it's a huge chore to do that, this already sends a clear enough signal of where the current level cap is.
A minor change like this, to make it entirely impossible to get higher, that just doesn't sound necessary if you already get so little exp. at Level 20 anyway.
Maybe they will do that one day, but fixing this just for logic's sake? There are more important things to take care of first, such as adding further content and fixing bugs.

Of course, if you want to give yourself the challenge to level up higher and even to 50, then you are free to do that. Players of various video games do things in games that weren't intended or envisioned by the devs all the time, after all.
But since LoE is not designed for this anymore now and only meant to get you up to 20 so far, they also don't have to offer an easier way of reaching Level 50 again now, just because some players decide to play the game in their own, but unintended, way.
It's how the game works now. And I already detailed above why a level cap like that makes the game last longer and is therefore more beneficial, than simply allowing the player to reach Level 50 (easily) as it used to be until the newest update, so I can't add anything to this anymore.
You always wanted to meet Scootaloo? Then be on the lookout for her in Equestria, she is galloping all over the realm!


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