A Discussion Point: Alicorns

[Luminescence]

Hello everypony! This will be the first of a couple of discussion posts I've been working on.

I know everyone is worried/hesitant/surprised by alicorn Twilight, and I am too, but it brings some interesting points into light.

What about an alicorn is different?
How did they become them?
and/or
Where did they come from?

Note: The and/or is from the fact that Celestia "made" Twilight an alicorn, so it is semi-logical to conclude that alicorns can "create" other alicorns. However if that is so then there had to be a first alicorn to make the "new" alicorn.

Secondary Note: Everything beyond this is my opinion and semi-logical conclusions

Alright, so for tackling the first question, What makes them different?

Yes, naturally there is the fact that they are alicorns and, there by, have pegasus wings and a unicorn horn. However both Celestia and Luna are, well, rather aged. However we know , I think it was Nicole Oliver who told us, that Twilight will not outlive her friends. This brings up a problem. How can one alicorn live longer than another by a measure untold? This presents three rather interesting possibilities.
1. There are different types of alicorns
2. The elements of harmony have an after effect of making anyone who uses them immortal
3. Twilight Dies
Now, for the sake of not having Applejack watch all of her family perish, or Pinkie Pie realizing that she will watch everyone she knows, loves, and understands die, we can probably rule out the second possibility. As for the third option, that is a nigh on impossibility.
Therefore, we can probably deduce that there are different types of alicorns. However, this creates a question.

What divides the types of alicorns?

To this, I believe I have a solution. The answer would be, how they became an alicorn.
To make this conclusion, there are two main points of development.
The first point comes from the Harths Warming Eve's story and its wrap up of Celestia and Luna. Now, the story is of how Equestria came to be, and I will assume you know it. The main point we will need to gather though, is that Celestia and Luna did not yet exist. This can be determined by the unicorns raising and lowering the sun and the moon, which is now one of their jobs. So, we can determine that they came along after the founding of Equestria. This would make them have to be born during the period of time in which ponies were learning to not just cooperate because they had to, but they wanted to. Then look at it from this perspective, what if they were born alicorns? What better way to help inspire a feeling of unity between what was once rival races, than by holding behind these children of all of the races? It could be seen as a product of their unity. And what better way to have a equal balance of power among the races by having these prodigious children rule? I think it is pretty easy to see how that could have occurred, IF they were born alicorns. And as they still rule to this day, I believe it can be made a semi-logical jump to that they were in fact born alicorns.

(Note: To stem the inevitable question about the banner, It was probably the closest banner that Celestia and Luna had that represented unity to the ponies of that age. For example, while the USA celebrates Independents Day, they don't dust off their old Thirteen colonies era flag to wave about)

The second point is Cadence. During the flashbacks with her and Twilight, and most importantly Shining Armor, they were much younger. More to the point, Shining Armor and Cadence were approximately the same size. Also, during the present time in Equestria, they are approximately the same size still. This is important because of Celestia and Luna. While it is rather safe to say they are only a few years apart, Celestia is quite a bit taller than Luna, who is a little bit taller than Cadence. Now, while Luna was stuck on the moon for a few centuries (10 in fact) Celestia continued to grow. So, in a millenium, Celestia only grew yea much more than Luna. This can lead us to the conclusion that they grow at different rates than normal ponies. While, in fact, Cadence doesn't.

While neither of these points directly prove that there different types of alicorns, it leaves a pretty solid case for it.

Now, back to the original question of how they are different, that has split into two, how are both types of alicorns different?
Born Alicorns, from this, it can be gathered that beside having wings and a horn, they grow at a much slower rate, and are ageless.
"Made" Alicorns, it can be gathered, grow at the normal rate, and aren't ageless.


As for the second/third question, I've kind of explained what I think on most of it. I think Celestia and Luna were both born alicorns, while we know that Twilight was made an alicorn, and I believe Cadence to be made an alicorn.
This brings two questions though, Why were Celestia and Luna born alicorns, and Why was Twilight and Cadence made into alicorns?
Twilight is easy, it was because of her mastery of friendship that Celestia found fit to make her an alicorn, for the betterment of all of Equestria.
Celestia and Luna are harder to pinpoint. I think it was as the unity of the three races, and a sharing of their inherit magic, and probably some deep magic from the sun and moon, that allowed in them being born as alicorns.
Cadence is hardest of all. I honestly have no idea how a filly could have done something so great to be of use to the entire kingdom with love of all things at such a young age. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of love, but love is such a strange and vague term that absolute mastery of it as Twilight did magic is astounding and astronomical accomplished.


That's all I have on this, What do you guys think?

[Night Pony]

Cadence was revealed to be a pegasus in the comics. She became an alicorn after saving a village (or so I've heard).

[Luminescence]

Thank you! I haven't been able to get the comics (yet) so that information is much appreciated!

[Tommy73103]

OMG this wall of text, i'm too lazy to read it all, but i'm still in the opinion that there are 2 types of alicorns, those who born alicorns (celestia, luna, cadence) and those who become it (twilight),  and about the immortality i really don't know, celestia and luna are certain immortal (they lived for more than 1000 years so they get old veeeeeery slowly or they're immortal) but twiligh and cadence, who knows?

[ArtVeigar]

Cadence's story isn't told on the comics, but in a story book called "Twilight and the Crystal Heart Spell", that takes place right after Twilight became an Alicorn. Basically, Cadence saved a village with her "magic of love", even though she was a pegasus, from a jealous witch who was never loved.

I think your points are really well thought, and it's nice to know there are more people who also have thought on the possibility of the Elements of Harmony bringing immortality to their bearers. It's plausible and possible, as the only bearers they ever had are immortals. But as you said, it wouldn't actually help much the situation, becuase instead of only Twilight suffering from seeing her close friends dying, they would live immortaly together, but still seeing their family and other friends dying.

About the Alicorns, I have my own headcanon about Celestia and Luna's birth, but it is entirely made of suppositions, with low probability of being the actual truth, so I'll keep it for myself (unless you want to know about it). And I don't actually believe Celestia has the power to turn ponies into Alicorns. I think she just acts as a catalyst, accelerating a process that would occur anyway, or maybe just has the power to awaken the Alicorn essence inside a pony who has it, so she wouldn't be able to turn anypony into Alicorns. That's why there are just two "made" Alicorns after thousands of years (even if I still think it's odd that there are only four Alicorns: two born thousands of years before the other two, who have an age gap smaller than twenty years. The probabilities of it occurring is too low.)

Another thing I find really odd is that Celestia and Luna are sisters with and age gap between them. It would make sense to say that the unity of all races together with some sort of magic in a big conspiracy created by the world itself was the reason two ponies were born Alicorns if they were born together, at the same exact time. But they didn't. And that raises another two questions: Who were their parents? And what they, and only the two of them, had for them to be the only couple in the entire history of pony world to have, not only one, but two Alicorn foals?

[Luminescence]

Personally, I would love to hear about your idea of Luna and Celestia's birth. That's what this forum section is for, ideas and concepts we have for/about alicorns.

I too find it odd their age difference, but I have an idea. What if they were born at the same time? As for the impending, why is Luna smaller, question, I think it has to do with her banishment.
See, personally, I don't think Luna was banished onto the moon, I think she was banished to the moon. The thing with the first is, that would put Luna/Nightmare Moon sitting or walking around the face of the moon for ages. The second, however, doesn't necessarily imply that. Case in point, when Twilight looked at the moon, after Spike told her to rejoin the party, Nightmare Moon's face was plastered all over the moon. So I think, that she wasn't just banished to the moon, I think she was banished into the moon. That would prevent her from aging, even at a slower rate, as she wouldn't "be" a pony during that time.

As for their line of lineage, I have a much less definitive idea. That is to say, no idea.  *shrug* I don't know.

[Night Pony]

Spoiler: Season 4 spoilers. • show

In the animatic for Season 4 about Luna turning into NMM she looks like she does now. Though Celestia isn't shown and we don't know if she isn't younger looking at that time.

[ArtVeigar]

(I won't read the spoilers, so if I say anything here that was explaned inside Night Pony's spoiler tag, I'm sorry.)

At first I also thought Nightmare Moon was banished into the moon, but after reading the comics it seems she was actually banished onto the moon. The possibility is still there, I think, but it's lower. Maybe what kept Luna from aging was actually the Nightmare Moon form.

As for my thought on Celestia and Luna's birth, in my headcanon, they were born when Discrod already ruled Equestria. He had twisted and messed up the world at his will, and made everypony gray and crazy with his magic. But what would happen if a pony were to be born in that world, filled with strange magic? They could be born already twisted. By consequence of the own powers of Discord, two ponies were born as a combination of all the three races. And they were so different than the others that they weren't affected by Discord's powers. Even if they grew in that twisted world, they grew with the ability to think for themselfs, to know that something wasn't right, and with the will to stand against such power.

I came to this thought while I was thinking about the flow of Equestria's history, together with the idea that an Alicorn has never been born before nor after Celestia and Luna, and Discord's rule was the only moment in history the laws of the universe could be broken and allow things like that to happen.

[lemongrass]

Maybe when the three raves of ponies joined together, they needed a leader. A unicorn/pegasus/earth couldn't rule without making the others jealous. So when a unicorn and pegasus 'interbred' two alicorns were conveniently created. Everypony thought "YAY THE ANSWER TO ALL OUR PROBLEMS!" And made them princesses.

Luna was probably already younger than Celestia even before she was stuck on the moon for 1000 years.
In the first episode it says "the younger brought forth the moon to begin the night" (or something like that)

[ArtVeigar]

Maybe when the three raves of ponies joined together, they needed a leader. A unicorn/pegasus/earth couldn't rule without making the others jealous. So when a unicorn and pegasus 'interbred' two alicorns were conveniently created. Everypony thought "YAY THE ANSWER TO ALL OUR PROBLEMS!" And made them princesses.

Luna was probably already younger than Celestia even before she was stuck on the moon for 1000 years.
In the first episode it says "the younger brought forth the moon to begin the night" (or something like that)

I think if it was as easy as make a pegasus and an unicorn have foals to make alicorns, they would be a lot more common. But the fact that there are only four of them, and just two who were born as alicorns, in thousands of years of history, make us think there was something special in the two sister's case.

[Tiger]

I think if it was as easy as make a pegasus and an unicorn have foals to make alicorns, they would be a lot more common. But the fact that there are only four of them, and just two who were born as alicorns, in thousands of years of history, make us think there was something special in the two sister's case.

Unicorn + Pegasus does NOT equal alicorn.

There's a thread about it somewhere. Pony Sciences, I think it's called that. It's a long story.

[ArtVeigar]

I think if it was as easy as make a pegasus and an unicorn have foals to make alicorns, they would be a lot more common. But the fact that there are only four of them, and just two who were born as alicorns, in thousands of years of history, make us think there was something special in the two sister's case.

Unicorn + Pegasus does NOT equal alicorn.

There's a thread about it somewhere. Pony Sciences, I think it's called that. It's a long story.

I know that. Besides the fact that everyone keeps forgetting that alicorns also has Earth Pony characteristics, but they aren't as noticeable as wings and horn. MLP genetics is really food for thought, and probably impossible to figure out perfectly with the little information we have by now. (And I really think it's weird the fact that pegasus, earth pony and unicorn are considered different races, not species. How can a few chromosomes define if a pony will have wings and magical ability to fly, a horn and the ability to cast spells, or a strong body and ability to easily commune with nature?)

[Luminescence]

I think if it was as easy as make a pegasus and an unicorn have foals to make alicorns, they would be a lot more common. But the fact that there are only four of them, and just two who were born as alicorns, in thousands of years of history, make us think there was something special in the two sister's case.

Unicorn + Pegasus does NOT equal alicorn.

There's a thread about it somewhere. Pony Sciences, I think it's called that. It's a long story.

I know that. Besides the fact that everyone keeps forgetting that alicorns also has Earth Pony characteristics, but they aren't as noticeable as wings and horn. MLP genetics is really food for thought, and probably impossible to figure out perfectly with the little information we have by now. (And I really think it's weird the fact that pegasus, earth pony and unicorn are considered different races, not species. How can a few chromosomes define if a pony will have wings and magical ability to fly, a horn and the ability to cast spells, or a strong body and ability to easily commune with nature?)

Personally, I think it's a genetic trait that is based on genes both with and without a visible dependency. From what is seen with the Cakes, It has to be (What with the traits being preventive in Pumpkin and Pound but in neither of their parents.) So, if I were to to think from a biological standpoint, I would say being an alicorn is a mutation in which the genome from one of the parents refused to be split (somewhat like Klinefelter Syndrome) and when they had a child, it occurred again. Now, the logical part of me would usually say the odds of that are somewhere between 1 in never and 1 in all of time. But then again once you throw in the very existence of magic, most everything we know about science becomes irrelevant.
So my point is this: Perhaps.

[ArtVeigar]

Personally, I think it's a genetic trait that is based on genes both with and without a visible dependency. From what is seen with the Cakes, It has to be (What with the traits being preventive in Pumpkin and Pound but in neither of their parents.) So, if I were to to think from a biological standpoint, I would say being an alicorn is a mutation in which the genome from one of the parents refused to be split (somewhat like Klinefelter Syndrome) and when they had a child, it occurred again. Now, the logical part of me would usually say the odds of that are somewhere between 1 in never and 1 in all of time. But then again once you throw in the very existence of magic, most everything we know about science becomes irrelevant.
So my point is this: Perhaps.

But the thing is: there is no "half-pegasus and half-unicorn" or things like that. What make me think it's few or even a single gene (not chromosome, I made a mistake there, sorry) that defines which race the pony is. But how a can single gene make such a big difference in the entire body of an animal? Even the color of your eye or the color of your skin is defined by multiple genes, so how can a single gene interfere in the entire way your body works?

[Luminescence]

Personally, I think it's a genetic trait that is based on genes both with and without a visible dependency. From what is seen with the Cakes, It has to be (What with the traits being preventive in Pumpkin and Pound but in neither of their parents.) So, if I were to to think from a biological standpoint, I would say being an alicorn is a mutation in which the genome from one of the parents refused to be split (somewhat like Klinefelter Syndrome) and when they had a child, it occurred again. Now, the logical part of me would usually say the odds of that are somewhere between 1 in never and 1 in all of time. But then again once you throw in the very existence of magic, most everything we know about science becomes irrelevant.
So my point is this: Perhaps.

But the thing is: there is no "half-pegasus and half-unicorn" or things like that. What make me think it's few or even a single gene (not chromosome, I made a mistake there, sorry) that defines which race the pony is. But how a can single gene make such a big difference in the entire body of an animal? Even the color of your eye or the color of your skin is defined by multiple genes, so how can a single gene interfere in the entire way your body works?

Easy! A method for that would be super simple.
Okay, so I'm going to assume a basic understanding of DNA, and the chromosomes function. Well, from what we can determine in science, so far, there are vast swaths of "junk code" that simply exists to take up space in the genome. If we were to assume it was in fact they did change the unicorn's horn, or pegasus's wings, and earth pones resilience, it would be a simple task to have the single "master gene" to "turn on" which ever one. A point mutation there would be all it would take.

[ArtVeigar]

Easy! A method for that would be super simple.
Okay, so I'm going to assume a basic understanding of DNA, and the chromosomes function. Well, from what we can determine in science, so far, there are vast swaths of "junk code" that simply exists to take up space in the genome. If we were to assume it was in fact they did change the unicorn's horn, or pegasus's wings, and earth pones resilience, it would be a simple task to have the single "master gene" to "turn on" which ever one. A point mutation there would be all it would take.

Well, that makes sense. and a mutation of the sort would be rare enough to happen only once an era, what would be the case of the princess. Even though it's still improbable that it would happen to two sisters...