Yes I sometimes wonder about governments in shows X3
Diarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarchy) is more likely than either of those.
In it's simplest form: It's a Monarchy with two equal rulers.
Probably both, it's Tyranny in its original meaning.
For those who already know it but would like to see it explained to help those who don't know.
A tyrant is a ruler who claimed the throne without elections but through force, a militia of some sort.
So when the sisters defeated discord they claimed the throne, they became tyrants.
The original 14th century meaning of tyranny, according to the online etymology dictionary, is "cruel or unjust use of power". Online dictionaries are giving the same sort of definition. I believe that the word we're searching for here is not quite Tyrant, for a few reasons.
"Before my sister and I stood up to him, he ruled Equestria in an eternal state of unrest and unhappiness."
"...we combined our powers and rose up against him, turning him to stone."
In the old days, Discord was a Tyrant. There was a Rebellion involving the Sisters. You could also call it a Coup d'etat, which is a sudden and decisive action against a government, usually meaning the overthrow of that government. Discord was turned to stone, and then the Sisters became the rulers of Equestria. We do not know how they became the rulers of the new government. Did they claim the throne, or was it given to them freely? Was there an election? Did they have to go up against other alicorns in some kind of political debate?
We know now that they are two Princesses in a Diarchy over Equestria, a country on a continent, and that they once led a rebellion. We haven't seen how exactly they govern quite yet, as Luna's big, thunderous decrees were based on her outdated understanding of the governing method. We need to look at Celestia to see how she conducts her country. What are some political actions we've seen her take in the show?
Quote from: Aurethius on 2012 Sep 24, 12:23:54
The original 14th century meaning of tyranny, according to the online etymology dictionary, is "cruel or unjust use of power". Online dictionaries are giving the same sort of definition. I believe that the word we're searching for here is not quite Tyrant, for a few reasons.
6th and 7th centuries BC in Greece say what I told you.
Spoiler: Wikipedia • show [quote]In common usage, the word "tyrant" carries connotations of a harsh and cruel ruler who places his or her own interests or the interests of an oligarchy over the best interests of the general population, which the tyrant governs or controls. The Greek term carried no pejorative connotation during the Archaic and early Classical periods but was clearly a bad word to Plato, and on account of the decisive influence of political philosophy its negative connotations only increased down into the Hellenistic period, becoming synonymous with "Authenteo" - another term which carried authoritarian connotations around the turn of the first century A.D.[citation needed] During the seventh and sixth centuries BC, tyranny was often looked upon as an intermediate stage between narrow oligarchy and more democratic forms of polity. However, in the late fifth and fourth centuries, a new kind of tyrant, the military dictator, arose, specifically in Sicily.[/quote]
Ahh, in that original use of the word Tyrant, then. But even in this original use, it's coming from the latin word for "Illegitimate Ruler" and "Monarch, ruler of a polis". Anyone who took power through unconventional means. Power-grabbers. Again, we don't know how or when they took power after their little rebellion. We can't fairly call them tyrants because the crux of the term lies in how they acquired their rulership.
Quote from: Aurethius on 2012 Sep 24, 12:50:20
Ahh, in that original use of the word Tyrant, then. But even in this original use, it's coming from the latin word for "Illegitimate Ruler" and "Monarch, ruler of a polis". Anyone who took power through unconventional means. Power-grabbers. Again, we don't know how or when they took power after their little rebellion. We can't fairly call them tyrants because the crux of the term lies in how they acquired their rulership.
Maybe you're right, in today's vocabulary calling them tyrants is a bit excessive.
After reading a bit I'm going to review my original answer, they are not both Absolute and Constitutional, that's impossible.
It's only Absolute. Celestia can do as she pleases and she wants to do good.
But Nepotism is clearly present in Equestrian Royalty
From what I've seen/heard, it seems as though it is an imbalanced Diarchy originating from old word tyrants. Now, we haven't seen any episodes where the mane 6 get a mission during the night, but from what I can tell, Luna has very little say in the running of the country. Sure, she raises the moon, but the only things she has actually done is
appear at her holiday in Ponyville, and keep watch overnight during the wedding
though it appears as though she has her own royal guard. But yeah, she seems to be a bit more of a figurehead.
In complete agreement about Absolute and Constitutional monarchies being, by definition, incompatible. Now I know it's nitpicking, but we do not know if there is or is not some kind of constitution or list of laws that Celestia abides by. There probably isn't, and she's just an accepted leader who does all the right things most of the time, but there might be. Some sort of "Constitution of Love" that has some fuzzy rainbow rules about loving the people and whatnot.
Regarding Nepotism, what are some examples?
Celestia's only relative that we've seen, aside from Princess Luna who has equal claim to power as her sister, is Prince Blueblood. He's merely another royal, and I don't see any reason to claim any kind of special favors or unfairness. He does have some kind of power and station that comes to him by virtue of his blood relations, but is what we've seen in the show really nepotism in anyone's opinion?
Let's look at non-family members. Twilight, who became part of the School for Gifted Unicorns, was taken in as a special student by Princess Celestia. Was she necessarily given any particular station? She's given access to certain places around the palace, yes, like the Starswirl the Bearded Wing. She gets her own little apartment with a library. She is also Celestia's most gifted student, so we can argue that she's earned these things. Some of the guards are familiar with her, but she doesn't have any particular right to order them around that we've seen.
Shining Armor. Did he earn his station, or was it given to him as the older brother of Celestia's favorite whatever? How about Princess Cadance, how should we classify her?
Regarding Princess Luna's actual power, I think the implications from her possessing royal guard, her command over citizens, and her taking the responsibility during the night are signs that she has power. They're not clear signs by any means, so it could go either way, but she does have some kind of authority. She's got the name, she demonstrates some power. Up to personal interpretation here, I'd argue.
I always had the feeling of Nepotism, that could just be me.
I also thought of a Theocracy, It might be my long exposure to the fandom, but Celestia is regarded as godlike.
Quote from: Little Judas on 2012 Sep 24, 14:04:12
I always had the feeling of Nepotism, that could just be me.
I also thought of a Theocracy, It might be my long exposure to the fandom, but Celestia is regarded as godlike.
Demigod or deity? The fact that she has lived for over 1,000 years gives good enough reason to consider her to be somewhere in that range above ordinary ponies, higher than just being royalty, so I agree.
Actually do we even know the lifespan of the ponies based on episodes granny smith is probably a few hundred years old I can't remember the exact reason for it I'd have to watch the episodes again. Not to mention have we ever seen old Unicorns? What if the magical races live longer because of magic?
I think in normal mythology Unicorns live quite a long time. hundreds to a thousand years, but this all depends on the story writers, and Alicorns are basically a Unicorn Pegasus.
And if we are also going by normal Royalty Luna really can't do much unless she had to take the throne if Celestia for some reason couldn't.
I would have to Oligarchy, the family of alicorn rules over all of Equestria
Quote from: Trege on 2012 Sep 24, 19:40:56
Actually do we even know the lifespan of the ponies based on episodes granny smith is probably a few hundred years old I can't remember the exact reason for it I'd have to watch the episodes again. Not to mention have we ever seen old Unicorns? What if the magical races live longer because of magic?
Pony age is a gray area, for certain. Celestia and Luna are most likely beyond the normal 'mortal' scope of other ponies like Granny Smith. I'd love to hear about what you saw that suggested her age was beyond a hundred years. Otherwise, I think we ought to assume a normal (ie human) aging process for ponies. Twilight was young once, then she grew up. Granny Smith was young once, then she grew old.
We have been seeing more Alicorns in positions of power, but consider the leaders from the Hearths Warming Eve story. Don't consider it for too long though, I'm personally skeptical of the historical accuracy of that little tale.
It was in the founding of ponyville episode which was family appreciation day where granny smith tells her story of how she was there when they founded ponyville. I believe in another episode it said ponyville was actually around for a long time. I need to
re-watch them though so I can get the facts straight which I'll probably do soon. ovO
Edit : Found it.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]t=35s
This is just one scene though and could be issues they didn't think about at the time.
Quote from: Trege on 2012 Sep 25, 00:39:18
It was in the founding of ponyville episode which was family appreciation day where granny smith tells her story of how she was there when they founded ponyville. I believe in another episode it said ponyville was actually around for a long time. I need to
re-watch them though so I can get the facts straight which I'll probably do soon. ovO
Edit : Found it.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]t=35s
This is just one scene though and could be issues they didn't think about at the time.
I think there was a woman in real life who lived to be at least 114. Considering that humans are able to live that long, as rare as it is, maybe Granny Smith has lived for decades up to a century too, from good health.
The Apple family runs a farm that produces apples, carrots, corn, and eggs, so I wonder if Granny Smith has a really healthy diet. Plus, she seems to be rather active, and staying active can help you live longer. There have also been studies that have shown that elderly people in nursing homes who take care of plants are much more likely to live longer with better health, though the theory is that it's because they still get a sense of having control over something in their life.
So ponies really might have the same kind of lifespan as humans, and Granny Smith is just one of those lucky and healthy enough to have lived for a long time.
Yeah I suppose she could be healthier than the rest, when I think about it you only see granny smith in the present after ponyville was founded. You don't see anyone else's ancestors from that time as far as I know.
It still makes me curious if Unicorns live longer though as we've never seen one old Unicorn yet, Cloudsdale has had old Pegasi and we see a few more old Earth Ponies in the The Mysterious Mare Do Well episode.
What you've put together, Trege, is actually pretty compelling. Granny Smith's family was responsible for the founding of Ponyville. Before her, there was no Ponyville.
Twilight tells us "Ponyville was started by Earth Ponies, so for hundreds of years they've never used magic to clean up winter."
Unless we have any reason to doubt either story, Granny Smith is hundreds of years old. Consider also that Celestia didn't appear any differently during Granny Smith's story.
So it seems ponies do not have life spans comparable to humans, but they do age.
I know that Lauren Faust said all the Ponies have passive magic, I actually have a theory that because Alicorns are Pegasus Unicorns that they live longer than normal because of it. But the only way to figure that out would be to find out if Unicorns and Pegasus have longer lifespans than the Earth Ponies. But there's no evidence supporting that Unicorns live longer, other then the normal mythology of Unicorns, which doesn't apply unless the Authors intended it to apply. This also depends on what fan theories or your own theories you want to use though.
It could also just be that Granny Smith is healthier than normal like Chishio said but we have no idea of knowing unless other old Earth Ponies were shown that we could know the history of.
Or for all we know both could be accurate because Twilight said hundreds of years, so while Granny Smith could be healthier the age of ponies could still be bigger than we think.
(Sometimes I get random theories from watching the episodes, starting to wonder if I think too much into it. ovO )
maybe Granny got the favor of Celestia and thus gained an extended lifespan?
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Sep 25, 19:39:22
maybe Granny got the favor of Celestia and thus gained an extended lifespan?
Wouldn't that be more like a curse?
hmm... nah. :] Granny sure seems to love being alive after all these years!
It's definitely interesting. May even come up in-game somehow. I try not to worry about 'thinking too much' about it, it's just another way to have a good time with a show.
thinking too much about it, the very definition of fandom!
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Sep 26, 15:10:33
thinking too much about it, the very definition of fandom!
After almost a year with this community, I would have to agree with this statement :l
it's why we have million-page fanfics :]
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Sep 27, 00:12:52
it's why we have million-page fanfics :]
very true... very very true...
one might say my little speech in my oc page is overanalyzing lol
anyhow. Diarchy is the answer.
I think that "Diarchic Theocracy" would be a fine definition...though probably the princesses don't share equal powers, but Celestia wields most of them...especially after Luna's ban :/
you never know; after all, when somepony is princess of the night, it's hard to really notice and understand exactly what powers she has.
Who's judge when something happens illegal happens both in daytime and nighttime.
And for that matter, is there a legal system?
Well Appleloosa had a Sheriff if I recall, and the hospital had night guards. So they probably have some sort of legal system.
Both are quite different, maybe there is a provincial legal system or even every town for themselves.
Maybe Appleloosa is a Shire in the Kingdom of Canterlot?
I've read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, but none of them really explain the concept of a shire.
Assuming you still live in Middle -Earth, can you give an explanation?
In Old English times, an administrative district, consisting of a number of smaller districts ('hundreds' or 'wapentakes'), united for purposes of local government, and ruled jointly by an ealdorman and a sheriff, who presided in the shire-moot (shire court). Under Norman rule, the division of England into shires was continued, the AF. counté, Anglo-Latin comitatus, being adopted as the equivalent of the English term. At the present day shire is rare in official use, but is current as a literary synonym for county (chiefly restricted to those counties that have names ending in -shire). The counties of Wales, and most of those of Scotland, have -shire as the ending of their name, but the word is now rarely employed in speaking of them. The counties of Ireland were often called shires in the 16-17th c., but the use is now obsolete.
Going to read that a second time when I get home and hope to understand it the third time.
xD sorry x3
Crime rate is low in equestria however there is a legal system.There are royal guards everywhere.Not to mention in appleloosa you can see a sherrif house.
Ponyville is a town, and I think Appleloosa is a colony of sorts, mainly for just recently thriving with the alliance between the buffalo
maybe it's an empire, except with two princesses? like Rome. Royal Guards everywhere to keep the peace, "Shire-riffs" at the borderlands, a great city on a mountain from which to rule it all, fear of "barbarian" races from outside coming in.
We always thought it was communism, PM us to correct us. :)
if it were communism there wouldn't be princesses. :/
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Sep 28, 03:10:50
In Old English times, an administrative district, consisting of a number of smaller districts ('hundreds' or 'wapentakes'), united for purposes of local government, and ruled jointly by an ealdorman and a sheriff, who presided in the shire-moot (shire court). Under Norman rule, the division of England into shires was continued, the AF. counté, Anglo-Latin comitatus, being adopted as the equivalent of the English term. At the present day shire is rare in official use, but is current as a literary synonym for county (chiefly restricted to those counties that have names ending in -shire). The counties of Wales, and most of those of Scotland, have -shire as the ending of their name, but the word is now rarely employed in speaking of them. The counties of Ireland were often called shires in the 16-17th c., but the use is now obsolete.
Like Yorkshire? That's the only one I know of.
something like that.
I do think it leans more to Capitalism.
Quote from: Little Judas on 2012 Sep 29, 07:33:10
I do think it leans more to Capitalism.
Capitalistic Monarchy rule O:
capitalist economy, socialist services, diarchic governance?
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Sep 29, 17:22:54
..., socialist services, ...?
We haven't seen any money transfers for that, but they could have happened.
So if they are really that socialist is unknown.
medicine seems sort of gov ctrl'd.
hospital didn't seem to cost much and they kicked rd out real quickly? idk
Man, this thread reminds me why politics is so interesting to me. The various forms of government that our society created is amazing.
On topic: I say it's a Diarchy with Theocracy thrown in there. If I remember right, the Roman Republic, before Rome was an empire, was sort of presidential Diarchy, two elected heads of state. But Luna and Celestia were certainly not elected. They're tyrants, really. They took the throne through force
enlightened tyrants?
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Sep 29, 21:17:02
enlightened tyrants?
Enlightened, benevolent, tyrants to be more specific.
yes. which makes tyrrany actually possible as a good form of governance here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar
Julius Ceasar was certainly not benevolent, but he was probably the best tyrant in history.
eeyup. an effective ruler.
Spoiler: And an honest one • show [quote=Julius Caesar]All of Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which is inhabited by the Belgae, another by the Aquitani, the third by those who in their own language are called Celts, but in ours are called Gauls. Among all of these languages, institutions and laws are different. The Gauls are separated from the Aquitani by the river Garonne and from the Belgae by the rivers Marne and Seine. Of all of these, the bravest are the Belgae, because they are far away from the culture of our province, because few merchants visit them and bring to them those things which tend to effeminate men's minds, and because they are nearest to the Germans, who live across the Rhine and with whom they are continually waging war.[/quote]
One of the proudest moments in Belgian history.
What if it's a society based on strength and since Celestia and Luna are the most powerful ponies of the land, they rule Equestria together :I
Quote from: Book Smarts on 2012 Sep 30, 23:28:47
What if it's a society based on strength and since Celestia and Luna are the most powerful ponies of the land, they rule Equestria together :I
doubt it. elsewise why are snotty weaklings like Blueblood at the top?
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 01, 22:01:47
Quote from: Book Smarts on 2012 Sep 30, 23:28:47
What if it's a society based on strength and since Celestia and Luna are the most powerful ponies of the land, they rule Equestria together :I
doubt it. elsewise why are snotty weaklings like Blueblood at the top?
He might be an arrogant jerk, but his cutie mark looks magical, at least that's what I think.
So he could be quite powerful... or not, we don't know.
Quote from: Little Judas on 2012 Oct 02, 16:51:16
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 01, 22:01:47
Quote from: Book Smarts on 2012 Sep 30, 23:28:47
What if it's a society based on strength and since Celestia and Luna are the most powerful ponies of the land, they rule Equestria together :I
doubt it. elsewise why are snotty weaklings like Blueblood at the top?
He might be an arrogant jerk, but his cutie mark looks magical, at least that's what I think.
So he could be quite powerful... or not, we don't know.
a powerful sorcerer horrified at getting dirty?
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 02, 17:30:38
Quote from: Little Judas on 2012 Oct 02, 16:51:16
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 01, 22:01:47
Quote from: Book Smarts on 2012 Sep 30, 23:28:47
What if it's a society based on strength and since Celestia and Luna are the most powerful ponies of the land, they rule Equestria together :I
doubt it. elsewise why are snotty weaklings like Blueblood at the top?
He might be an arrogant jerk, but his cutie mark looks magical, at least that's what I think.
So he could be quite powerful... or not, we don't know.
a powerful sorcerer horrified at getting dirty?
Specialized in banishing even the smallest pieces of dirt to the moon.
Fun fact: Originally the moon's diameter was 2m shorter.
Quote from: Little Judas on 2012 Oct 02, 18:18:05
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 02, 17:30:38
Quote from: Little Judas on 2012 Oct 02, 16:51:16
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2012 Oct 01, 22:01:47
Quote from: Book Smarts on 2012 Sep 30, 23:28:47
What if it's a society based on strength and since Celestia and Luna are the most powerful ponies of the land, they rule Equestria together :I
doubt it. elsewise why are snotty weaklings like Blueblood at the top?
He might be an arrogant jerk, but his cutie mark looks magical, at least that's what I think.
So he could be quite powerful... or not, we don't know.
a powerful sorcerer horrified at getting dirty?
Specialized in banishing even the smallest pieces of dirt to the moon.
Fun fact: Originally the moon's diameter was 2m shorter.
lol that would be an awesome power lol