Remember to read the forum rules!
Started by Holiday Cheer, 2018 Sep 30, 22:29:24
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QuoteThis moderation log, however, will remain team-internal. This is for several reasons, but the most pressing ones are that we'd rather not be encouraging witch hunts over individual players whose behaviour others may take umbrage with, nor witch hunts over individual moderators.
QuoteModerators are not 'able to kick or even outright ban players at will, seemingly with no need to consult other moderators, and often without even warning the player beforehand', as the document suggests. Moderation has the most stringent recruitment process of all teams on the project (necessary given their field), and no moderator is given any responsibility until they have already proven themselves to the satisfaction of the moderation team as a whole, as well as the moderation lead.
Quote from: Sweet ZealOkay, a bit of a preface. The text below Ive sent to both Perry and Moony (I think thats the name of the mod. The one with some remark about ears and hooves in their profile on loe forums). Only sent it to Moony because Perry is never online. I was hoping to at least get a response, if not unbanned, instead got banned for trolling, apparently.Hiya. The title says it all, now let me tell you the circumstances. Attached are two screenshots. I've crossed names of two other folks I've been talking to, just in case. Don't want them to get into trouble. These screenshots are mostly to show you my talk with a member of moderation team. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/470045368353161216/471445740619825162/2018-07-23_01-39-56-7924.png?width=1083&height=610 https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/470045368353161216/471445701562466314/2018-07-23_01-43-28-5935.png?width=1083&height=610 Now, the story. It all started with a joke arguement about best princess. Among other nonsensical arguements most of which I don't remember (fairly confident I said that Luna doesn't shower among other things) I said "Nightmare Moon did 9/11". Yes, against the rules, but considering the context and the fact that no one took that statement politically (nor was it meant as such), it was ignored. It happened when Napalm, Ellowee and some other admin I can't remember the name of were in the room. It was in local chat. Screenshots tell the rest of my talk with Napalm. I am 100% confident this ban was not issued correctly or on a proper basis. 1. I wasn't banned for the message itself. We had a small talk with Napalm afterwards. 2. Only one member of admin/mod team messaged me. 3. The statement was not inflammatory and was not perceived as such. Personally, I think he just banned me because I was flat out annoying him with questions - which once again had a lighthearted tone to them, not to mention were in PM. At least, I'm reasonably certain suggesting to "make amends to the rules to say that if I do it, that's okay" can not be taken seriously in given context. So I'd like to get unbanned. Thank you.The joke was in local about 5 minutes before I got the message. It was during the equestrian games opening event, with ellowee and at least one other mod present, cant remember who. It was completely ignored by everyone except this guy, and even then it was not the message itself that got me banned - it was talking to him afterwardsIf it was even a week long, Id have smiled and treated it as just a mod telling me they were sick of my sh*t. But permanently, without a chance to even talk to anyone on the mod team about it?Thats my problemAs I said, not trying to look better than I am, merely presenting facts.Thank you.The text of the appeal was sent to both Perry and Woona, btwHis (napalms) ban reason (what I see on the forums) states trolling. If nothing else I feel like I could at least get a response for my appeal, instead the account I used for it got banned as well
QuoteA 'standardised message' doesn't particularly seem necessary to 'help players better regulate their own behaviour'; our rules are pretty clear, most players are already aware of them [...]
QuoteThe moderation messages I've seen myself are usually pretty clear-cut, along the lines of "the thing you just did goes against rule [X], please stop or we'll take action", but I obviously can't speak to every instance of moderation taking action (but then again, that's what the log is for!).
QuoteI was actually unaware that the rules threads on the forum weren't viewable for some who had been banned (specifically those who have been IP banned), but we've immediately taken steps to rectify this.
QuoteOutside of our internal HR team to resolve internal disputes
QuoteModeration itself should not have access to the commands mentioned in the document - specifically 'developer tools' like spawning items or creatures. These commands are - and to my knowledge, have only ever been - available to implementers, administrators, and PR [...].
QuoteAnd finally, on the note of moderation reading messages: our rules are extremely clear on what will and will not be considered acceptable communication on our servers, and we will continue to enforce those rules to ensure the atmosphere we have strived for all these years is maintained.
QuoteIt could also made accessible in an anonymized way. That way you remove the witch-hunting but users are still able to see what is going on
QuoteI know of a specific example where this isn't the case. As they can obviously not post on the forums anymore, I will forward their story:
QuoteJust the "eyes" emote, or just saying "language" doesn't help much, either. While saying language could be seen as a warning for actual bans, it could also be seen as a gentle nudge. It simply isn't clear if the user is been warned or not.
QuoteQuoteThe moderation messages I've seen myself are usually pretty clear-cut, along the lines of "the thing you just did goes against rule [X], please stop or we'll take action", but I obviously can't speak to every instance of moderation taking action (but then again, that's what the log is for!).Which we are unable to review....
QuoteSo.....disputes brought up to HR team and were said that they'd be discussed in the last team-wide meeting, but HR never brought it up? And some team leads regularly not showing up to those team-wide meetings? This shows some more internal miss-organization.
QuoteThere have been multiple instances of some moderators spawning e.g. dozens of guards in SCC.
QuoteWhile this is totally understandable, it is also morally simply wrong to just read along whispers of other players within the game, whispers which may contain confidential information. To fix the entire morality vs moderation issue, it could be implemented that whispers are only visible to moderators if one of the whispers are being reported. Just reading along whispers is, well, a privacy violation.
QuoteMaking this anonymous would defeat the purpose of even posting this online. Not a single banned member would be able to know what he did. Also a witch-hunt would happen no matter what.
QuoteNot a single moderator has the power to ban without consult first, as said before only severe actions will be banned immediately.
QuoteThe eyes and "language" are a way of saying things, if this isn't clear you can Always ask what they mean by it. Team Members do not bite.
QuoteAgain if something isn't clear you can always ask for more information, we are happy to provide more information concerning a ban.
QuoteModerators can not spawn mobs in instances, this is only for Team Leads
QuoteWhispers are not checked by moderators, if there are problems with whispers and a ban follows then one of the players is kind enough to let this know. However leaving judgement to the players, some might see this as another witch-hunt waiting to happen. Moderators view things from a neutral perspective.
QuoteClearly this message has been posted to a moderator for having bad language in it. Pretty much like you share this log openly.
Quote from: -Woona- on 2018 Oct 02, 14:26:18Logs show that this message was received, evaluated and has issued a kick. Also the ban appeal was rejected based on this evidence.CheersWoona
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:14:08The message wasn't reported in any way, thus a moderator was clearly able to read along private messages, assumed to be only meant for certain eyes.I find it very interesting how the entire ban story of sweet zeal up there was just ignored. It shows that 1st: moderation reads along whispers, and 2nd: emailing perry doesn't work. And apparently gets you banned.
Quote from: NapalmStyles on 2018 Oct 02, 14:40:28Sweet Zeal was brought to my attention by several users for making 9-11 themed jokes, when I accosted the user through whisper (and no, Mods can NOT see any whispers beyond what other users report to us who were part of said whisper conversations, or ones we are personally engaged in, stop trying to state otherwise as it is wildly incorrect)
QuoteSweet Zeal replied with "meh. Is holocaust okay?" to which my response was "Not at all." The reply to that was clear trolling, so upon consulting with the rest of the team a ban was decided upon.
QuoteAs a result, your story is misinforming to a high degree. Also the appeal was not ignored, it was denied on the above-listed grounds.
QuoteWe do not take such matters lightly. And it was the screencaps provided to me by those other users, along with the ones I took of my conversation with Sweet informing them of their warning (as well as the one you showed here in this conversation) that gave all necessary grounds to uphold Sweet's ban.
QuoteIn the future you should make sure your stories, and the stories of others you speak for/through, are straight first.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:52:25Perhaps it would be a good idea to tell users why they were banned though. Clearly a message "trolling" isn't sufficient, as Sweet wasn't trying to troll here.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:52:25So....without a warning? What happened to that again?
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:52:25How should anyone know if a ban repeal was ignored or denied if no reply is ever sent out?
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:52:25I don't see any warning given in the screenshots I posted above? Again, i re-iterate, perhaps warnings should be clearly marked.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:52:25No side is completely clean.
Quote from: NapalmStyles on 2018 Oct 02, 15:24:42We do not ignore ban appeal requests, under any circumstances. No matter who or for what, we treat them all with equal fairness and due courtesy. If you have not received a reply to your request for an appeal, it does not mean such a request has been ignored, regardless of subjective interpretation.
Quote from: NapalmStyles on 2018 Oct 02, 15:24:42"keeps messaging me with "don't mention such subjects" Nothing further needed there.
Quote from: GalapagoisAnd finally, on the note of moderation reading messages: our rules are extremely clear on what will and will not be considered acceptable communication on our servers, and we will continue to enforce those rules to ensure the atmosphere we have strived for all these years is maintained. If you wish to discuss things that you know will fall foul of the rules, you are more than welcome to do so on any platform that we are not responsible for - but while you communicate using our systems and servers, we will expect you to adhere to our rules, regardless of whether or not you believe that the person you intend to see your message would personally find it acceptable or not.