So I joined a group of ponies who have concerns about the way that the moderation team on Legends of Equestria handles discipline in game among other things. The members of this group have drafted a letter which was posted to the official LoE Discord and is currently being reviewed and addressed by the moderation team. I was asked to post the letter here so that it would have more exposure for the general public to review. Please take a moment to read this (it's only three pages) and let us know your thoughts. We are not trying to start any trouble with the moderation team, we would just like to see some improvements for the betterment of the player's experience in Legends of Equestria. This isn't about starting drama or slinging hate or blame, it's about opening up a dialogue so there can be real change for the better. Please consider this as you read. And thank you.
An Open Letter To The LoE Development Team (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ncviK40BE_Mqa9UQPo_6O4rKP9zVFvmeGV6LbKwemNg/edit?usp=sharing)
I was going to not say anything about this open letter, because my own relationship with the LoE dev team is currently in a very bad state, for numerous reasons (which I can't disclose, so please don't ask).
But I always communicated how much LoE means to me, how much I love it and how much I care for its well-being, which includes the community as the community IS LoE, and not saying something out of fear to make matters worse for myself would make me a hypocrite.
So, I'm saying here that I support each of the points in this letter. Especially the last one about privacy.
I didn't sign this letter, for the reasons stated, but consider this post a signature in spirit.
- Scoots
I read the letter and i agree with each point.
Most of the issues mentioned in this letter were already addressed directly by myself when the document was first posted in our Discord server, but I'll happily reiterate what was said there here, as well as try to provide more detail. I'll try to go point-by-point, but if I miss anything out feel free to pester me about it.
We have no plans to make any sort of 'public' moderation log. All moderation actions, as well as the evidence surrounding them (e.g. screenshots, reports from players, etc) are already logged by moderation, and this log is viewable to the moderation team, overseen by senior mods as well as Perry, our moderation lead. This moderation log, however, will remain team-internal. This is for several reasons, but the most pressing ones are that we'd rather not be encouraging witch hunts over individual players whose behaviour others may take umbrage with, nor witch hunts over individual moderators. If you disagree with any moderation decision, you are of course able to appeal it by emailing Perry directly, and those concerns will be investigated by him.
Moderators are not 'able to kick or even outright ban players at will, seemingly with no need to consult other moderators, and often without even warning the player beforehand', as the document suggests. Moderation has the most stringent recruitment process of all teams on the project (necessary given their field), and no moderator is given any responsibility until they have already proven themselves to the satisfaction of the moderation team as a whole, as well as the moderation lead. As part of this process, moderators follow a pretty strict set of rules on how to deal with any issues - it can basically be boiled down to: warn, then kick, then ban, but that's a very simplified view obviously. These warnings are usually delivered to the person privately (e.g. in-game as a whisper), which means only that individual will often see the warning. It's possible that some people might well miss the warning they've been given, but that doesn't change the fact that it's been given, and recorded as such in the moderation log. At any rate, under this process, no action is taken 'without even warning the player beforehand' except in the most extreme circumstances, where an immediate kick/ban is justified. Again, if anyone feels that such a process has not been followed in their particular case, they are welcome to contact Perry to appeal a moderation decision, at which point the moderation log will be consulted, and if this process has not been followed properly then that will be taken into account.
A 'standardised message' doesn't particularly seem necessary to 'help players better regulate their own behaviour'; our rules are pretty clear, most players are already aware of them and will happily remind each other in situations where they feel someone may be going against them, and quite frankly if someone needs that much help 'regulating' their behaviour so as to not fall foul of some pretty easy rules to follow then I have to question whether such a message would make any difference. The moderation messages I've seen myself are usually pretty clear-cut, along the lines of "the thing you just did goes against rule [X], please stop or we'll take action", but I obviously can't speak to every instance of moderation taking action (but then again, that's what the log is for!). I will agree that it's important that people know what rule they've breached, and are warned against doing so again - but, once more, this is something that seems to be widely practised regardless, from my own observations.
I'd also like to point out that anyone who has been banned, when they try to log into the forum, will be presented with a ban message, which will usually provide information about why the action was taken, as well as the duration of the ban as currently set. This message could be more detailed, however, and I'm already looking into editing our current system to allow for the message to include which rules were the cause of the ban, a link to the rules themselves, and a line directing the person banned on how to appeal.
Speaking of which, an appeal system for bans already exists, and has existed for as long as I can personally recall: anyone who feels any moderation decision was mistaken, or wishes for a decision to be reconsidered, can contact Perry via email (
[email protected]) and appeal it. Responses to such appeals may not always be immediate; as I'm always quick to remind everyone, we are a completely volunteer team, working on this project in our free time, and around often-hectic work, school, college, university, and life schedules. As such, responses to things like ban appeals, which take time and investigation to fully pursue, may not be swift; they will, however, always be reviewed when the relevant team member has the chance to do so. I'll happily agree that this isn't ideal, and I'm already looking into how ban appeals might be more swiftly addressed - for example, the possibility other senior moderators investigating appeals as well (with exceptions for situations that they themselves were involved in, obviously, e.g. if they were the one who did the ban, they wouldn't be the one to review it).
I was actually unaware that the rules threads on the forum weren't viewable for some who had been banned (specifically those who have been IP banned), but we've immediately taken steps to rectify this. We now have a rules page directly on our website (https://www.legendsofequestria.com/rules); I'm still sorting out the formatting for it, and I plan to unify our current three separate rules sheets (discord, forum, game) together there, but it already serves the intended purpose of making these rules viewable to people who have been IP banned.
Accountability within the LoE team has always been present. The Team Leads direct the project, with input from each of their teams, and regular meetings help to keep us all co-ordinated (or at least as much as is possible, given the nature of the project). Outside of our internal HR team to resolve internal disputes, however, we don't currently have, or plan to introduce, a system by which a member of another team will 'oversee' that team's actions. It seems fairly counter-intuitive to have the people who are essentially experts in their sphere of the project being overlooked by someone who isn't one, and it wouldn't really do anything to resolve an "us-vs-them" mentality - it would just shift the "them" part of that equation from "moderation" to "the whole LoE team". In a way, however, we kind of already have something like that, at least when it comes to ban appeals; namely, I am cc'd into every response to an appeal that Perry sends out, and am usually involved in the appeal itself (since most appeals come through PR, as we direct them to the correct place and notify moderation that an appeal is happening, and when a person disagrees with the outcome of an appeal, they usually go to PR next in one form or another to protest the decision). This has been the standard for at least a couple of years now, and I have yet to disagree with any decisions taken as a result of a ban appeal, whether it be the lifting or reduction of a ban or the confirmation of it - and yes, both of the former have happened, in cases where the player in question has made it clear through their appeal that they understood the reason for the ban and that they were willing to comply with the rules going forward.
Moderation itself should not have access to the commands mentioned in the document - specifically 'developer tools' like spawning items or creatures. These commands are - and to my knowledge, have only ever been - available to implementers, administrators, and PR, usually for the purposes of testing or adding content to the game (although with PR, I'll readily admit, the commands have occasionally been used for fun interactions that most players seem to enjoy, such as Ellowee spawning clouds or other mobs in SCC once in a blue moon). It's entirely possible that some moderators who are also on implementation have used these commands as well, however. If you object to any team member's usage of commands, please send us an email (
[email protected]), providing screenshots if possible, and we'll happily address it.
And finally, on the note of moderation reading messages: our rules are extremely clear on what will and will not be considered acceptable communication on our servers, and we will continue to enforce those rules to ensure the atmosphere we have strived for all these years is maintained. If you wish to discuss things that you know will fall foul of the rules, you are more than welcome to do so on any platform that we are not responsible for - but while you communicate using our systems and servers, we will expect you to adhere to our rules, regardless of whether or not you believe that the person you intend to see your message would personally find it acceptable or not.
I think that's everything, but if I've missed any concerns, please do let me know and I'll try to address them. I'm genuinely happy to see that these issues have been raised peaceably, and I'd encourage everyone to continue the conversation in this manner, to make sure we keep things productive!
Thank you for taking your time to read the letter and reply!
QuoteThis moderation log, however, will remain team-internal. This is for several reasons, but the most pressing ones are that we'd rather not be encouraging witch hunts over individual players whose behaviour others may take umbrage with, nor witch hunts over individual moderators.
It could also made accessible in an anonymized way. That way you remove the witch-hunting but users are still able to see what is going on
QuoteModerators are not 'able to kick or even outright ban players at will, seemingly with no need to consult other moderators, and often without even warning the player beforehand', as the document suggests. Moderation has the most stringent recruitment process of all teams on the project (necessary given their field), and no moderator is given any responsibility until they have already proven themselves to the satisfaction of the moderation team as a whole, as well as the moderation lead.
I know of a specific example where this isn't the case. As they can obviously not post on the forums anymore, I will forward their story:
Quote from: Sweet ZealOkay, a bit of a preface. The text below Ive sent to both Perry and Moony (I think thats the name of the mod. The one with some remark about ears and hooves in their profile on loe forums). Only sent it to Moony because Perry is never online. I was hoping to at least get a response, if not unbanned, instead got banned for trolling, apparently.
Hiya. The title says it all, now let me tell you the circumstances. Attached are two screenshots. I've crossed names of two other folks I've been talking to, just in case. Don't want them to get into trouble. These screenshots are mostly to show you my talk with a member of moderation team. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/470045368353161216/471445740619825162/2018-07-23_01-39-56-7924.png?width=1083&height=610 https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/470045368353161216/471445701562466314/2018-07-23_01-43-28-5935.png?width=1083&height=610 Now, the story. It all started with a joke arguement about best princess. Among other nonsensical arguements most of which I don't remember (fairly confident I said that Luna doesn't shower among other things) I said "Nightmare Moon did 9/11". Yes, against the rules, but considering the context and the fact that no one took that statement politically (nor was it meant as such), it was ignored. It happened when Napalm, Ellowee and some other admin I can't remember the name of were in the room. It was in local chat. Screenshots tell the rest of my talk with Napalm. I am 100% confident this ban was not issued correctly or on a proper basis. 1. I wasn't banned for the message itself. We had a small talk with Napalm afterwards. 2. Only one member of admin/mod team messaged me. 3. The statement was not inflammatory and was not perceived as such. Personally, I think he just banned me because I was flat out annoying him with questions - which once again had a lighthearted tone to them, not to mention were in PM. At least, I'm reasonably certain suggesting to "make amends to the rules to say that if I do it, that's okay" can not be taken seriously in given context. So I'd like to get unbanned. Thank you.
The joke was in local about 5 minutes before I got the message. It was during the equestrian games opening event, with ellowee and at least one other mod present, cant remember who. It was completely ignored by everyone except this guy, and even then it was not the message itself that got me banned - it was talking to him afterwards
If it was even a week long, Id have smiled and treated it as just a mod telling me they were sick of my sh*t. But permanently, without a chance to even talk to anyone on the mod team about it?
Thats my problem
As I said, not trying to look better than I am, merely presenting facts.
Thank you.
The text of the appeal was sent to both Perry and Woona, btw
His (napalms) ban reason (what I see on the forums) states trolling. If nothing else I feel like I could at least get a response for my appeal, instead the account I used for it got banned as well
QuoteA 'standardised message' doesn't particularly seem necessary to 'help players better regulate their own behaviour'; our rules are pretty clear, most players are already aware of them [...]
Just the "eyes" emote, or just saying "language" doesn't help much, either. While saying language could be seen as a warning for actual bans, it could also be seen as a gentle nudge. It simply isn't clear if the user is been warned or not.
QuoteThe moderation messages I've seen myself are usually pretty clear-cut, along the lines of "the thing you just did goes against rule [X], please stop or we'll take action", but I obviously can't speak to every instance of moderation taking action (but then again, that's what the log is for!).
Which we are unable to review....
QuoteI was actually unaware that the rules threads on the forum weren't viewable for some who had been banned (specifically those who have been IP banned), but we've immediately taken steps to rectify this.
Great news! Thank you!
QuoteOutside of our internal HR team to resolve internal disputes
So.....disputes brought up to HR team and were said that they'd be discussed in the last team-wide meeting, but HR never brought it up? And some team leads regularly not showing up to those team-wide meetings? This shows some more internal miss-organization.
QuoteModeration itself should not have access to the commands mentioned in the document - specifically 'developer tools' like spawning items or creatures. These commands are - and to my knowledge, have only ever been - available to implementers, administrators, and PR [...].
There have been multiple instances of some moderators spawning e.g. dozens of guards in SCC.
QuoteAnd finally, on the note of moderation reading messages: our rules are extremely clear on what will and will not be considered acceptable communication on our servers, and we will continue to enforce those rules to ensure the atmosphere we have strived for all these years is maintained.
While this is totally understandable, it is also morally simply wrong to just read along whispers of other players within the game, whispers which may contain confidential information. To fix the entire morality vs moderation issue, it could be implemented that whispers are
only visible to moderators if one of the whispers are being reported. Just reading along whispers is, well, a privacy violation.
QuoteIt could also made accessible in an anonymized way. That way you remove the witch-hunting but users are still able to see what is going on
Making this anonymous would defeat the purpose of even posting this online. Not a single banned member would be able to know what he did. Also a witch-hunt would happen no matter what.
QuoteI know of a specific example where this isn't the case. As they can obviously not post on the forums anymore, I will forward their story:
Not a single moderator has the power to ban without consult first, as said before only severe actions will be banned immediately.
QuoteJust the "eyes" emote, or just saying "language" doesn't help much, either. While saying language could be seen as a warning for actual bans, it could also be seen as a gentle nudge. It simply isn't clear if the user is been warned or not.
The eyes and "language" are a way of saying things, if this isn't clear you can Always ask what they mean by it. Team Members do not bite.
QuoteQuote
The moderation messages I've seen myself are usually pretty clear-cut, along the lines of "the thing you just did goes against rule [X], please stop or we'll take action", but I obviously can't speak to every instance of moderation taking action (but then again, that's what the log is for!).
Which we are unable to review....
Again if something isn't clear you can always ask for more information, we are happy to provide more information concerning a ban.
QuoteSo.....disputes brought up to HR team and were said that they'd be discussed in the last team-wide meeting, but HR never brought it up? And some team leads regularly not showing up to those team-wide meetings? This shows some more internal miss-organization.
If there are problems within the team it is our job to make sure they don't happen again. Players shouldn't be bothered with team internals.
QuoteThere have been multiple instances of some moderators spawning e.g. dozens of guards in SCC.
Moderators can
not spawn mobs in instances, this is only for Team Leads
QuoteWhile this is totally understandable, it is also morally simply wrong to just read along whispers of other players within the game, whispers which may contain confidential information. To fix the entire morality vs moderation issue, it could be implemented that whispers are only visible to moderators if one of the whispers are being reported. Just reading along whispers is, well, a privacy violation.
Whispers are not checked by moderators, if there are problems with whispers and a ban follows then one of the players is kind enough to let this know. However leaving judgement to the players, some might see this as another witch-hunt waiting to happen. Moderators view things from a neutral perspective.
I hope these things clear it out some more.
Cheers
Woona
QuoteMaking this anonymous would defeat the purpose of even posting this online. Not a single banned member would be able to know what he did. Also a witch-hunt would happen no matter what.
Not really, you could still see that ponies got banned based on which grounds
QuoteNot a single moderator has the power to ban without consult first, as said before only severe actions will be banned immediately.
Did you read the story I posted? Because it doesn't seem that way.
QuoteThe eyes and "language" are a way of saying things, if this isn't clear you can Always ask what they mean by it. Team Members do not bite.
So.......i'll have to re-ask for literally everything a moderator says if that was meant as a warning? That seems very tedious
QuoteAgain if something isn't clear you can always ask for more information, we are happy to provide more information concerning a ban.
Which would be great, of course, if the ways to contact moderation worked. Refer to the story posted above again. That is just a single-outed example, and there are many more. Emails to moderation simply getting ignored, and apparently forum PMs resulting in you getting banned.
QuoteModerators can not spawn mobs in instances, this is only for Team Leads
Then it is very confusing who is team lead and who not, as I am fairly certain I have seen e.g. Billow spawn guards multiple times in SCC
QuoteWhispers are not checked by moderators, if there are problems with whispers and a ban follows then one of the players is kind enough to let this know. However leaving judgement to the players, some might see this as another witch-hunt waiting to happen. Moderators view things from a neutral perspective.
.....Come again? Whisper messages are clearly checked by moderators. How else are there ban cases based only on things said in whispers?
1. You can't really know on what ground they were banned because ever case is watched seperately.
2. Every moderator reports to Perry, if there is a problem, write an e-mail to Perry and he will find out.
3. Perhaps, perhaps not. We asked moderator to provide some extra information if required.
4. Everything conercning a ban should be redirected to Perry at
[email protected].
5. If there is a spawn of mobs i will ask, do know that none are meant to be harmfull to ponies, and mostly only done when requested by players. Team Leads can be seen with the letter "A" or under team lead under the discord page.
6. Whispers are only checked if A: Moderator gets a report of a user breaking rules and supply the pictures. B: when we go the long way around and request Server logs which take a long time.
Cheers
Woona
1. Apparently not, since here are clearly miss-understanidngs
2. If you read the thing mentioned, emailing perry DOESN'T WORK. You won't get a reply AT ALL no matter HOW LONG you wait!
3. that is very vague and does not solve the problem of unclear warnings even remotely
4. So, the method that doesn't work?
5. The mob spawns have disrupted other events multiple times in the past
6. explain this:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/475860878806220811/496743898232782857/2018-08-24_03-02-43-9613.png)
We are doing things by the book. Perry does indeed respond to every message. check if your inbox isn't full, if it isn't in spam folder, or that you actually block e-mails.
We are sorry if they disrupted events in the past and we will check if this happens again.
Clearly this message has been posted to a moderator for having bad language in it. Pretty much like you share this log openly.
Cheers Woona
QuoteClearly this message has been posted to a moderator for having bad language in it. Pretty much like you share this log openly.
The message wasn't reported in any way, thus a moderator was clearly able to read along private messages, assumed to be only meant for certain eyes.
I find it very interesting how the entire ban story of sweet zeal up there was just ignored. It shows that 1st: moderation reads along whispers, and 2nd: emailing perry doesn't work. And apparently gets you banned.
Logs show that this message was received, evaluated and has issued a kick. Also the ban appeal was rejected based on this evidence.
Cheers
Woona
Quote from: -Woona- on 2018 Oct 02, 14:26:18Logs show that this message was received, evaluated and has issued a kick. Also the ban appeal was rejected based on this evidence.
Cheers
Woona
Interested that those affected don't get a reply then, being left in the blank.
Also interesting that apparently making a joke is bannable.
EDIT: not only bannable, but permabannable. Someone making a joke is treated the same way as someone who would manage to steal the sites DB is.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:14:08The message wasn't reported in any way, thus a moderator was clearly able to read along private messages, assumed to be only meant for certain eyes.
I find it very interesting how the entire ban story of sweet zeal up there was just ignored. It shows that 1st: moderation reads along whispers, and 2nd: emailing perry doesn't work. And apparently gets you banned.
Sweet Zeal was brought to my attention by several users for making 9-11 themed jokes, when I accosted the user through whisper (and no, Mods can NOT see any whispers beyond what other users report to us who were part of said whisper conversations, or ones we are personally engaged in, stop trying to state otherwise as it is wildly incorrect) Sweet Zeal replied with "meh. Is holocaust okay?" to which my response was "Not at all." The reply to that was clear trolling, so upon consulting with the rest of the team a ban was decided upon. As a result, your story is misinforming to a high degree. Also the appeal was not ignored, it was denied on the above-listed grounds. We do not take such matters lightly. And it was the screencaps provided to me by those other users, along with the ones I took of my conversation with Sweet informing them of their warning (as well as the one you showed here in this conversation) that gave all necessary grounds to uphold Sweet's ban.
In the future you should make sure your stories, and the stories of others you speak for/through, are straight first.
Arguing that Mods can read all whispers and act through them has already been noted more times than should ever be required is flatly false, no matter how much you might wish it to be the case it is with absolute certainty not so. Also, no one below the Admin level can spawn mobs/etc. in-game, claiming otherwise in an inflammatory manner is a ridiculous and frankly dishonest assertion.
I could dissect the rest (including the abundance of false, unjustified, and wholly unnecessary entitlement) like a science class frog, but that has already been done profusely by members of PR and either ignored or argued through ignorance with the same level you claimed Sweet's ban appeal had been. To go any further would frankly be a waste of time.
With that, carry on.
Quote from: NapalmStyles on 2018 Oct 02, 14:40:28Sweet Zeal was brought to my attention by several users for making 9-11 themed jokes, when I accosted the user through whisper (and no, Mods can NOT see any whispers beyond what other users report to us who were part of said whisper conversations, or ones we are personally engaged in, stop trying to state otherwise as it is wildly incorrect)
Perhaps it would be a good idea to tell users why they were banned though. Clearly a message "trolling" isn't sufficient, as Sweet wasn't trying to troll here.
QuoteSweet Zeal replied with "meh. Is holocaust okay?" to which my response was "Not at all." The reply to that was clear trolling, so upon consulting with the rest of the team a ban was decided upon.
So....without a warning? What happened to that again?
QuoteAs a result, your story is misinforming to a high degree. Also the appeal was not ignored, it was denied on the above-listed grounds.
How should anyone know if a ban repeal was ignored or denied if no reply is ever sent out?
QuoteWe do not take such matters lightly. And it was the screencaps provided to me by those other users, along with the ones I took of my conversation with Sweet informing them of their warning (as well as the one you showed here in this conversation) that gave all necessary grounds to uphold Sweet's ban.
I don't see any warning given in the screenshots I posted above? Again, i re-iterate, perhaps warnings should be clearly marked.
QuoteIn the future you should make sure your stories, and the stories of others you speak for/through, are straight first.
No side is completely clean.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:52:25Perhaps it would be a good idea to tell users why they were banned though. Clearly a message "trolling" isn't sufficient, as Sweet wasn't trying to troll here.
I'll happily amend the ban message to reflect every last detail of what/why. There are plenty to list. You once brought up rule 13a to me in a DM conversation regarding another user, so you're aware enough of the rules that once I complete such amendments I'm quite certain you'll agree with them. Perhaps not trolling, but chief among them would be a violation of the main aspect of rule 13.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:52:25So....without a warning? What happened to that again?
A warning had been issued over the initial occurrence, you yourself showed it in the screencap you provided, and I myself hold screencaps showing the same. Under normal circumstances, the policy would be three strikes: A warning issued to the user in a way they could clearly see unless otherwise preoccupied/incapacitated, a kick to serve as a secondary warning that most would logically conclude as "Looks like they're serious, I'd better stop before I get banned.", and finally a ban is issued when these previous two steps prove insufficient by a continuation of the actions/etc. that caused them.
With regard to Sweet's case, it was consulted and discussed among Moderation staff, and as "jokes" such as those did indeed violate several rules a ban was deemed appropriate, particularly after the response to the warning which *yet again* is clearly shown in the screencap you yourself provided here showed a clear unwillingness to follow the rules and adhere to the warnings given.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:52:25How should anyone know if a ban repeal was ignored or denied if no reply is ever sent out?
We do not ignore ban appeal requests, under any circumstances. No matter who or for what, we treat them all with equal fairness and due courtesy. If you have not received a reply to your request for an appeal, it does not mean such a request has been ignored, regardless of subjective interpretation.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:52:25I don't see any warning given in the screenshots I posted above? Again, i re-iterate, perhaps warnings should be clearly marked.
"keeps messaging me with "don't mention such subjects" Nothing further needed there.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 02, 14:52:25No side is completely clean.
Again, nothing further needed.
As you were.
Quote from: NapalmStyles on 2018 Oct 02, 15:24:42We do not ignore ban appeal requests, under any circumstances. No matter who or for what, we treat them all with equal fairness and due courtesy. If you have not received a reply to your request for an appeal, it does not mean such a request has been ignored, regardless of subjective interpretation.
May I suggest sending replies? The people in question have literally no way to verify if their message got lost due to technical difficulties, if it was read, or processed at all. A short reply with which decision is taken upon ban repeals and why seems needed here
Quote from: NapalmStyles on 2018 Oct 02, 15:24:42"keeps messaging me with "don't mention such subjects" Nothing further needed there.
I am somewhat speechless, that this is considered a warning. It is hard to get more vague to tell somebody that they got officially warned. This explains a lot of the confusion, since players simply do not know when they get warned or not. More clarity here is needed, maybe something like "This is a warning. Do not mention such subjects again." That is unmistakably a warning and couldn't be seen otherwise, as, well, you clearly state that that is a warning.
A couple of months back I asked a moderator, I believe it was Napalm Styles, could have been someone else, about whether or not moderators can view whispers. The question was asked in local chat in SCC and the answer was a definite yes. That was a question I believe I asked more than once but it was ignored previously.
Furthermore I've heard more than one story of players sharing their experiences of moderators interrupting party and whisper chat immediately after a supposed violation of rules occured which would rule out the possibility of one party having to first report a violation.
I'm receiving conflicting information in this thread about moderators being able to view whispers. On one hand I can see that both Woona and Napalm Styles claim moderation memebers cannot see whispers and all actions taken by moderation concerning messages sent via a whisper are based on information in the form of a screenshot or other report submitted by one of the messaging parties. On the other hand there is this:
Quote from: GalapagoisAnd finally, on the note of moderation reading messages: our rules are extremely clear on what will and will not be considered acceptable communication on our servers, and we will continue to enforce those rules to ensure the atmosphere we have strived for all these years is maintained. If you wish to discuss things that you know will fall foul of the rules, you are more than welcome to do so on any platform that we are not responsible for - but while you communicate using our systems and servers, we will expect you to adhere to our rules, regardless of whether or not you believe that the person you intend to see your message would personally find it acceptable or not.
From what I understand, we are expected to adhere to the rules regardless of whether the message is being sent via a whisper or not, which is understandable, however this also hints at moderators indeed being able to view and moderate this messages.
Good Evening,
I would like to address a few things here and clear up the air. Below I will cover a few topics that have been discussed in this thread so far. I will not be quoting anyone or anything just to save time and this misquoting I have seen.
Whispers:
MODERATION CANNOT READ WHISPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are not able to read whispers in the game at all. We are however able to review logs and see what has been said. Most of the things reported to us when whisper is used, is reported by the person on the other end. So please maybe review who you send whispers to and have a conversation with them about it. We usually get screenshots form the people reporting the whisper.
Bans/Kicks:
All bans and kicks are reviewed with the moderators who are online at the time. (Which is around 2-5 at any time depending on time of day.) We all communicate with each other and show what we saw and how to deal with it. Unless the rule broken is a major one no one takes action without review of the rest of the moderation team. (If you post adult content, advocate hate speech, and anything else that is a major no you will be banned with no questions asked and the ban will not be removed. Also if you violate any federal or international laws.)
Email:
I check my LoE email twice a week minimum. You do not get a response right away if the following things are occurring:
1. I am at work! (I have a day job 40+ hours per week!)
2. I am investigating your ban appeal. (This takes time for me to review logs and talk to parties involved)
3. I am on vacation. (This means I am out of town on a trip or at a convention which means no email.)
4. I am away from my computer. (Applies to vacation as stated above but do have family/friend obligations)
Please keep in mind that if you email me more then once in the span of 3 days I have to review all the email that has been sent and then start to look into the issue. Also keep in mind this is a volunteer project which none of us are paid to do.
Spawning of mobs:
Moderation does not have the ability to spawn anything. As stated before only admins and people on the implementation team have the ability to spawn any mobs. Yes I have spawned my fair share of dragons in SCC, Cantermore, and Ponydale but I have also not spawned any dragons in a while. I mostly spawn clouds now to sit on and watch people, or spawn clouds for others to sit on. I see this is becoming an issue with the harmless clouds that people can sit on and enjoy. So going forward I will work to not spawn anything at all for the players to enjoy. This includes and clouds, dragons, random NPC, harmless bunnies, or any other type of item. I thought a majority of the players enjoyed sitting or dancing on clouds in SCC or even breaking them.
Rules and context:
We have resolved the rules issue and they are now linked or are being worked on linked on our main page. Please take some time and review all the of the rules for every platform we provide to you free of charge. If you are warned, kicked, banned for any of these rule violations and fee it was not fair. Please provide evidence of how it was not fair and include any and all unedited screenshots for my review. Now comes the topic of jokes and context. 9/11 jokes, holocaust jokes, jokes with death/violence, jokes with any sexual conduct or meaning ARE NOT ALLOWED. If the joke is in poor taste then it is not allowed. We strive to keep an environment that can be enjoyed by all ages and by everyone. This means you need to run the joke through some filters and think about it before sending the joke. If the joke would seem in poor taste to say in public to a group of elderly, or young school children, then do not say the joke!
Also on a side note: If you create a new account to get around a ban that is already in place to cause trouble, post about the ban without emailing me first, this is a ban evasion. If you are found to be evading a ban we will ban the account you made. If you continue to ban accounts we will ban your IP address!
Public Moderation Logs:
I do not see a need for the public to have access to moderation logs since this does give the players name, forum name, email, and IP address. This is classified as personal information and will be kept as such. But you did give me an idea and let me run it past everyone here.
How about we do a public banned page? We put a screenshot up of your avatar/pony along with your forum name, in game name, email, and the reason why you are banned. I am sure the community would love to see who people were banned for posting adult content, making jokes in bad taste, ERP, harassing or threatening another player or people. Now before you say yes to this idea ask yourself, what if I end up on that list? Would I want people knowing what I did? Would I like it to be cached and searchable in google because it is the internet.
We prefer to keep matters like this internal and between the parties involved and not the public.
Appealing Bans:
If you wish to appeal your ban please contact me at my LoE email address that has been posted many times in this thread and is on the website. Please do not do the following:
1. PM me on the forums.
2. PM me on Discord.
3. PM me on Skype. (Don't use it much anymore so worst way to get in contact with me.)
4. Have your friend send me an email asking to be unbanned.
5. Have a family member send me an email asking for you to be unbanned. (Yes this has happened.)
6. Send he threatening messages and emails that you will do harm to me, my friends, my family, and LoE including the community and team members. (Yes this has happened a few more times then I care to admit. If you do this expect your information to be forwarded to federal, state, or local authorities if you live in the USA, if in another country we will forward that information to whatever law enforcement agency is in your nation. We have had to do this before. Also you will never be unbanned if you do this.)
However, please do the following:
1. Email me at my LoE email.
2. Provide your player name in game and account name on LoE. (Most of the time I get a character name from the game and do you know how many people have the same or similar name in this game? I seriously had to review 38 accounts who had the character name "Twilight Sparkle" or same variant and figure out which one was banned for what.)
3. Reason why you were banned.
4. If able, mod who banned you.
5. Screenshots supporting your case for being unbanned.
6. Reason why you should be unbanned.
7. Date and time you were banned.
Please provide the above to help your case be resolved quicker. But also please keep in mind the reasons above I will not respond right away 24/7.
Closing:
I would like to close on a few points listed below:
1. This is a fan volunteer project we work on for free.
2. This is a service and platform we provide for free of charge to you the community.
3. Everyone on the project is human and has other things to do other then work on this project. Please respect that we all have obligations outside of LoE.
4. Please use the correct means to contact and appeal a ban.
5. Please read and follow the rules on all platforms we provide and support.
I want to thank you for your concern. I would also like to thank you for the continued support for the project.
Thanks,
~Perry
I am personally impressed by the way both the ponies who are in support of this letter and the LoE Team have presented arguments here. And I can see that this has been somewhat positive in that a real dialogue has been opened up.
For the most part I can agree with the points brought up except one. And I am asking this purely because I don't know and understand.
Why is there even an issue with mobs and items being spawned? Why is this a talking point? And why is the solution to stop doing it forever?
In my experience this has done nothing but bring enjoyment to the game and the players. I do remember the situation Soru is referring to where a pony on the Team (not sure what their role is) named Billow Pillow did spawn several copies of Private Wing Sentinel in SCC and this guard would immediately attack and faint any player who used certain skills (candy shower chiefly among them). However the reaction to this wasn't 'oh no this pony is abusing their powers, someone please help'. The reaction was 'yay this is hilarious, let's all get fainted by the silly guard'.
Dragons have attacked several of my events recently but only after the majority of the event has completed and always to the delight of the players present. I'm also aware of the clouds Perry mentions having spawned, which ponies also very much enjoy playing on.
So why is this even being brought up as an issue? The people doing it aren't abusing power, they're trying to enhance the game experience for the players?
Perry please don't stop doing it and don't stop your team from doing it. We really enjoy it and it brings something special and memorable to the player run events.
I agree. There's nothing wrong with team members spawning in clouds or mobs (especially clouds, which attract ponies like bees to flowers). Here's Nightshade sitting on a cloud with 8 or 9 bunnies (incl. hers) at the 1 year anniversary event:
(http://i67.tinypic.com/10msl7o.jpg)
That might be the case now but with the spawning of dragons there was a few people that hated dying over and over again in the scc just cus y'all liked it doesn't mean everyone did. cus I know for sure I would be if it happened to me I don't like dying in the game over and over.
I will say a few things and i don´t like to comment in this subjects but.. i am agree that the thing of "spamming mobs/objects" has been pretty much fun in my point of view, i don´t see why that should be stop. I see a lot of ponies enjoying that and having a lot of fun moments (myself include) on LoE :) So please, do not stop doing that..
Another point i wanted to say: yes, i said that i support every point of the letter but now that i am reading this messages from both sides i would like to say that i should have wait to first see the arguments from both sides before writting my message. And also, to apologize for that :c
One last thing: i regret saying i support the 3 points of the letter without knowing first the situation.
PD: thanks Gala, Perry, Napalm and Woona for coming and clarify some points here about how moderations works and stuff :)
PD2: I personally hope we can have a conclusion for this subject soon and this ends well.
PD3: i don´t support any of 3 points of the letter (after reading it again and reading all this messages).
I would like to thank the LoE team for responding to the letter, and recognize their hard work for keeping LoE running. However, there are real issues here, and I hope we can come to a solution that is good for both the moderators and the players. In particular, there are ways to make things significantly better without making unreasonable demands on the LoE team.
For me, and most of the other signers, the key issue is the warning/ban/appeal procedures, and an important part of this is clear communication. What's past is past, but moving forwards, I have the following suggestions:
- I propose marking out warnings more clearly. It doesn't have to be elaborate; for example, simply preceding a warning with "WARNING 1" or "WARNING 2" doesn't require much more effort, and makes things clearer for everyone.
- Be more responsive to appeals. I don't think we should blame anypony in particular. I acknowledge that sorting through these would take a long time. However, there are ways to alleviate it if it is a big burden: for example, the moderators can divide up the work so that no one is overly burdened, and so players can receive a more timely reply.
Clearer communication is good for everyone. As mentioned in the letter, if the warnings and bans are clearer, then appeals would also be easier to deal with: a moderator could effectively respond that warnings were clearly given and ignored, instead of the current back-and-forth arguing about whether the warnings were clear. The less transparent the process is (and it is not necessary to have a completely public log, to meet a reasonable demand of transparency and due process), the more that players expect moderators to be responsible for listening to appeals.
Related to this, I think it is important that the moderators be respectful when dealing with warnings/bans/appeals, and other concerns that players raise. Respect comes both from following a due process and from professional language. Sarcasm and general rudeness have no place in these communications. I am grateful to all the times that moderators are respectful even when players don't respond in kind. When moderators are respectful, it gives players faith that they do in fact have the players' best interests in mind. However, from the issues raised in this thread, I think there is room for improvement.
I also think there's a fundamental disagreement on what's serious enough to get (perma)banned for, and we've skirted around this topic. I think we agree that posting links to adult content is serious, but to use an example that has been brought up, is a one-time 9/11 joke similarly serious enough to get a permaban? For a game based on a world where amnesty is the norm, my personal opinion is that the bans are too harsh. Certainly, inappropriate behavior must be regulated, but I ask you to think about what level is appropriate. What makes a game like LoE so wonderful is the community of players, and we must keep in mind that players are embedded in this community and that drastic punishments have repercussions in this community of friends.
May I suggest an update to the notifications system? So that maybe warnings could appear on the right side of the screen much like trading requests, in case a whisper was missed. Notifications should need to be disabled manually so that they're easier seen. Not everyone pays attention to the options of the bottom right corner. :P
Alternatively, a backlog of sorts could be provided by sending a message to a user through the forums or a direct email. These could provide a screenshot of the offence, including where a mod has given a warning and then why that particular action is against the rules. This is not an instant way of warning users, only for people to be able to have evidence should they be banned in the future or for whatever other reason.
I am highly disappointed by the lack of conclusions drawn from this.
I know we can't change what's in the past, so let's make things better in the future!
1. Mark warnings clearly
2. Actually follow the protocols - It appears ponies are rarely kicked before being banned
3. The punishments seem way out of proportion - a permaban for an inappropriate joke? Why not a week or a month ban instead?
4. Ban appeal process is painfully slow with very little feedback. If it is too much for Perry to handle alone, why not share the work?
5. "We are not able to read whispers in the game at all. We are however able to review logs and see what has been said." this is just contradicting itself. It doesn't matter if you can read whispers or party chats within LoE itself or via another program, there seems to be tons of unclarity on this, especially how moderation acts on unreported whispers / party chats.
I'd appreciate answers and hope we can actually reach some conclusions on this.
OFC please also read through and answer / comment on the posts above.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 07, 09:33:291. Mark warnings clearly
This has been at least partially addressed elsewhere, but I'll reiterate what I think are the main points here.
If a moderator is telling you directly to stop doing something, you are being warned. I really don't understand what about 'when a moderator tells me to stop they're doing so because what I'm doing breaks the rules' is causing the problem here. I can agree that providing more information would be useful, and I'm fairly certain that I've already indicated as much in previous discussions, as well as that we're discussing the idea internally already. Regardless of that, though, if you're ever uncertain about why a moderator is telling you to stop, which rule they believe you've broken, etc., you are more than welcome to ask them, and they'll almost certainly be happy to tell you if they failed to provide that information at first instance. Once again, if you feel that warnings were not given in a particular case or were unclear, please appeal the decision/report the incident by emailing Perry (preferably with evidence, e.g. screenshots, that can be used to help identify the issue), so that we can review the action(s) of the moderator(s) in question, change a decision if necessary, and try to ensure that such does not occur again.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 07, 09:33:292. Actually follow the protocols - It appears ponies are rarely kicked before being banned
This was already at least partially addressed:
Quote from: Galapagois on 2018 Oct 01, 17:11:47At any rate, under this process, no action is taken 'without even warning the player beforehand' except in the most extreme circumstances, where an immediate kick/ban is justified. Again, if anyone feels that such a process has not been followed in their particular case, they are welcome to contact Perry to appeal a moderation decision, at which point the moderation log will be consulted, and if this process has not been followed properly then that will be taken into account.
I'll go a little further now and add that despite repeated requests for evidence of such things occurring that have not been rectified and the moderator responsible corrected, we have yet to be provided with any that I am aware of. That's not to say it has never happened - I'm aware of situations where it has, and those have been rectified on appeal. There may well be other instances where moderators have fallen short, but without being given specific instances where we can review the information available in our logs, or provided with screenshots that clarify a situation/prove our logs to be wrong or incomplete, we can't act on it. If you believe that protocol has not been followed (and that the moderator was not justified in doing so, see previous comments about 'exceptional circumstances where it's more important to stop the behaviour immediately'), you're welcome to appeal moderation's decision; the log will be reviewed, as well as any evidence you can provide, and if the correct procedures were not followed, that will be taken into account when reviewing the appeal.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 07, 09:33:293. The punishments seem way out of proportion - a permaban for an inappropriate joke? Why not a week or a month ban instead?
This has already been at least partially addressed:
Quote from: Perry The Pony on 2018 Oct 02, 17:54:14All bans and kicks are reviewed with the moderators who are online at the time. (Which is around 2-5 at any time depending on time of day.) We all communicate with each other and show what we saw and how to deal with it. Unless the rule broken is a major one no one takes action without review of the rest of the moderation team. (If you post adult content, advocate hate speech, and anything else that is a major no you will be banned with no questions asked and the ban will not be removed. Also if you violate any federal or international laws.)
Quote from: Perry The Pony on 2018 Oct 02, 17:54:14Now comes the topic of jokes and context. 9/11 jokes, holocaust jokes, jokes with death/violence, jokes with any sexual conduct or meaning ARE NOT ALLOWED. If the joke is in poor taste then it is not allowed. We strive to keep an environment that can be enjoyed by all ages and by everyone. This means you need to run the joke through some filters and think about it before sending the joke. If the joke would seem in poor taste to say in public to a group of elderly, or young school children, then do not say the joke!
I'll expand further, however, by saying that LoE is not an appropriate venue for such things. If a moderator has told someone to stop, and they continue (to use the example being given repeatedly here: if someone makes an inappropriate joke, and are told by a moderator that that joke was unacceptable, they then immediately follow up by suggesting another topic that they absolutely know will not be tolerated, and proceed to then insult the moderator and make trolling comments like requesting an exemption from the rules specifically for them personally), then moderation will decide the appropriate measure to take to prevent the continuation of the behaviour. If they believe that the behaviour will not stop, then permanently banning that player is the only way to ensure they do not continue. Once more, if you disagree with an action moderation has taken, you are welcome to appeal through Perry, explaining why you believe the response was disproportionate, or in error, or to demonstrate that the behaviour will not continue in the future. Even if a ban appears entirely justified upon review, an appeal that indicates that the player understands that they broke our rules and action was taken accordingly, and that they are committed to ensuring that it won't happen in the future, may well result in a ban being shortened.
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 07, 09:33:294. Ban appeal process is painfully slow with very little feedback. If it is too much for Perry to handle alone, why not share the work?
This has already been responded to:
Quote from: Galapagois on 2018 Oct 01, 17:11:47Responses to such appeals may not always be immediate; as I'm always quick to remind everyone, we are a completely volunteer team, working on this project in our free time, and around often-hectic work, school, college, university, and life schedules. As such, responses to things like ban appeals, which take time and investigation to fully pursue, may not be swift; they will, however, always be reviewed when the relevant team member has the chance to do so. I'll happily agree that this isn't ideal, and I'm already looking into how ban appeals might be more swiftly addressed - for example, the possibility other senior moderators investigating appeals as well (with exceptions for situations that they themselves were involved in, obviously, e.g. if they were the one who did the ban, they wouldn't be the one to review it).
Quote from: Sorunome on 2018 Oct 07, 09:33:295. "We are not able to read whispers in the game at all. We are however able to review logs and see what has been said." this is just contradicting itself. It doesn't matter if you can read whispers or party chats within LoE itself or via another program, there seems to be tons of unclarity on this, especially how moderation acts on unreported whispers / party chats.
This has already been responded to:
Quote from: Perry The Pony on 2018 Oct 02, 17:54:14MODERATION CANNOT READ WHISPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Again I want to thank everypony that took the time to review this and to respond. I just want to give a few thoughts on what I observed through this whole process and then if whoever's in charge here wants to lock this and sweep it under the rug by all means do so.
Personally I joined this movement because I care about Legends of Equestria and it is my firm belief that every single player who joins the game and who wants to play it should be entitled to a fun experience in a world that richly reflects the canon world of My Little Pony Friendship is Magic. I am trying to make it my life's mission to create that world through fun events, building lasting friendships for myself and others, and helping others with their personal problems.
I believed in this cause because I felt that some ponies had not been given that chance to have that experience. They were singled out by a vindictive person or were the victim of a failed system. And that is truly a shame. But what I have seen come out of this letter and the following discussion is saddening.
There is no real sense of community here. There are ponies on one side pointing hooves and shouting that the moderation community and other LoE staff never listen and give them what they want. And there are some very bitter people who have tried to make this entire process personal and drag down people with whom they have personal grievances. But there are some very real and useful points being made as well. And on the other side there has been nothing but denial and refusal to cooperate from the majority of the LoE staff to the point of absurdity. I know there have been some promises of changes and discussions and that is great, if it actually does come to pass. And hopefully it will. But there were some very harsh and uncalled for things said here by the Staff as well. And these are the people who are supposed to be looking out for our world and have its best interest at heart.
In the end I think what we have here was very beneficial. It has demonstrated that there was a problem in Legends of Equestria. And whether that problem will continue to exist is up to both the players and the Staff. I can only hope that things will improve to a point where both sides of this can work together to create the experience we all deserve.
<3 Holiday Cheer
Public ban logs are usually the standard, friends. Here are just a few examples:
https://www.yogstation.net/index.php?do=publicbans
https://sg-gaming.net/bans/
https://bans.rustafied.com/
Ultimately the reason for this, as we've seen in this thread, is so the public can trust the moderation team. It protects moderators from accusations of unfair banning sprees as every ban they make, and the reason for said ban, is public. When you hold power over people it is generally best practice to provide them some avenue for observing the use of that power, to ensure it won't be used against them unfairly.
There were a lot of points made in this debate with anecdotal evidence, the most unreliable kind of evidence, and without public logs that's all the discussion can ever be. Obviously every intimate detail of the ban shouldn't be made public, but username + brief description along with ban duration and moderator that issued the ban has been accepted by most communities. The individual banned should be given the full statement of reasons upon request, of course. Ex:
somepony - banned for: offensive conduct - duration: 1 week - banned by: somepony else
Maybe even tie this to a warning system, with the time of each warning being displayed under the ban and being made clear to the user with a popup when they are issued. They only show up on the page after they are used as justification for a ban. This way people can also see that proper protocol was followed and warnings were given. Might ultimately be too much work to set up, but again these systems exist primary to protect the moderators from false accusations so any time you save not dealing with those is probably worth the up-front investment.
As for logging private messages, it's rather controversial:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/09/15/twitter_sued_reading_direct_msgs/
If you imply a messaging system is private when it really isn't, you could be violating laws in several states relating to consent and eavesdropping. Most public communication platforms don't even allow admins to view private messages, likely complying with both these laws and the general ethics of such a position. Storing private messages typically involves encryption, but in your case it would probably just be easier to not store them at all. If it's important to you to allow someone who wants to report a private message to do so, there are a variety of ways to handle it without storing messages long-term or in a format readable to anyone except the sender, recipient, and moderators if one of them reports a specific message. There's probably several libraries for unity or whatever platform the server runs on that should make this possible without in-depth networking and encryption knowledge.
Not that you'd ever actually run into legal trouble, of course, but it does seem that the general expectation is that you'd protect user's privacy and not store their private conversations in plaintext.
It's also common practice to announce in the chat logs when an admin uses a game-changing admin command, so that players know who did it and the record exists for later examination. Should clear up any misconceptions about moderators abusing their entity spawning rights, if they even have that ability. It's also somewhat common to provide a console command to all players to check what commands exist and what flags a user must have to use a given command.
When you hold power over others you also have to hold yourself to a higher standard than you do them. People are smart to distrust those with power over them, especially when that power comes with no apparent checks-and-balances. The game may not come with a price tag, but the regulars are still investing immense amounts of time into it. If we're to value someone's time at even half of minimum wage (~$6), spending 10 hours playing this game amounts to $60 of time spent. That's the up-front cost of a AAA title. Obviously the dev team gets none of this value for themselves, actually occurring sizable expenses of their own in terms of time and money to accommodate it, but it does at least illustrate the point that some players may have a sizable investment in the game and it's community regardless.
Making a free game can be very taxing as it yields no direct benefit, and often the players just want more than you're already giving them. However, that's the very nature of labors of love, you do them because you enjoy the work and want to give back to the community. If that's changed and you've come to hate the community you're supposed to be providing for, something's gone wrong somewhere and maybe you should move on to a new project. If it hasn't, then do whatever is reasonable to keep your community happy and keep bringing activity to your game. It's really not supposed to be a fight with the people you're making content for.
Anyway, back to running my vast empire. Just figured that, as the Saltan of Wheatgypt and Soyria, I'd share the wisdom that power has brought me since I was already passing through the area.
Good Evening,
It seems all sides have been heard and have given their responses. It seems this thread is causing more drama then good so I am locking the thread.
If you have anymore questions or concerns please reach out to use via email.
Thanks.