And suddenly it all makes sense...

Started by Midnight Breeze, 2013 Apr 06, 20:48:18

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HerpyDooves

Breezy, I'm pretty sure you're the one who came up with the theory that Star Swirl became Discord. Isn't it obvious? And with what you're saying, Star Swirl did not wield any Elements. That's what was missing!!!!! That's why when Star Swirl tried perfecting the imperfect spell, he became Discord! The spell rebounded onto him, turning him into a corrupt alicorn.

Since Star Swirl is known as Discord, that's why everyone thought he was dead! No offense, but you guys aren't thinking hard enough! :s

Midnight Breeze

Quote from: HerpyDooves on 2013 Apr 08, 23:13:43
Breezy, I'm pretty sure you're the one who came up with the theory that Star Swirl became Discord.


No.

HerpyDooves

Quote from: Midnight Breeze on 2013 Apr 08, 23:16:09
Quote from: HerpyDooves on 2013 Apr 08, 23:13:43
Breezy, I'm pretty sure you're the one who came up with the theory that Star Swirl became Discord.


No.


Well, just take what I said into consideration. I'm done here... for now.

Chishio Kunrin

Quote from: Midnight Breeze on 2013 Apr 08, 23:16:09
Quote from: HerpyDooves on 2013 Apr 08, 23:13:43
Breezy, I'm pretty sure you're the one who came up with the theory that Star Swirl became Discord.


No.

I think I was kinda the one who started that theory popping up. Heh. X3

Quote from: HerpyDooves on 2013 Apr 08, 23:13:43
Breezy, I'm pretty sure you're the one who came up with the theory that Star Swirl became Discord. Isn't it obvious? And with what you're saying, Star Swirl did not wield any Elements. That's what was missing!!!!! That's why when Star Swirl tried perfecting the imperfect spell, he became Discord! The spell rebounded onto him, turning him into a corrupt alicorn.

Since Star Swirl is known as Discord, that's why everyone thought he was dead! No offense, but you guys aren't thinking hard enough! :s

But Discord is a draconequus, not an alicorn.

"(Ticktock, time is running out) What are you doing now?
I don't know where you are, don't even know your name.
They think I'm crazy, my heartbeat goes up..."

Little Judas

Although such a transformation would be a nice touch to the lore, no evidence is given to this.
He could just as easily caught a few ponies with his spell and then after some time die of old age, yet bittered by his actions.

Basing every theory from now on to this hypothesis would be like using a fanfic as ultimate proof.
But if the show or comic series would implement this, I would be happy to accept it as a fact.
Thanks to Julius for my OC. (see the avatar)

Let it fly in the breeze and get caught in the trees, Give a home to the fleas, in my hair
A home for fleas, a hive for the buzzing bees, A nest for birds, there ain't no words
For the beauty, splendor, the wonder of my hair

HerpyDooves

If you guys want to discuss my theory, please go to my theory thread. I started something that I shouldn't have started. I'm sorry Breeze, continue with your theory.

Little Judas

It's nothing to feel bad about, you're thinking and that itself is a positive thing.
Thanks to Julius for my OC. (see the avatar)

Let it fly in the breeze and get caught in the trees, Give a home to the fleas, in my hair
A home for fleas, a hive for the buzzing bees, A nest for birds, there ain't no words
For the beauty, splendor, the wonder of my hair

HerpyDooves

Yes, but,  I disrupted his thread with my theory. I feel bad either way.

The Wandering Magus

ahem.  now that we are back to the original topic.

My question is, how exactly does "magic come from friendship" when so many friendless and unfriendly ponies (Sombra, pre-change/evil Trixie, Discord, Chrysalis) have extremely powerful magic?  Are there two different types of magic?
(sorry Bakasan, chose this image)
Descriptions and art of my OCs here: http://legendsofequestria.com/forum/index.php?topic=2636
my art: http://legendsofequestria.com/forum/index.php?topic=298
visiting soldier sister, be back 8/12/2013

Chishio Kunrin

I think the magic of friendship is another kind of magic that is amplified by the elements of harmony.

"(Ticktock, time is running out) What are you doing now?
I don't know where you are, don't even know your name.
They think I'm crazy, my heartbeat goes up..."

Rissian

Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2013 May 01, 17:59:33
ahem.  now that we are back to the original topic.

My question is, how exactly does "magic come from friendship" when so many friendless and unfriendly ponies (Sombra, pre-change/evil Trixie, Discord, Chrysalis) have extremely powerful magic?  Are there two different types of magic?


It's already confirmed that Dark Magic exists just by looking at Sombra. And changeling's are creatures that have their own different powers. Since they all have horns not to mention Unicorn magic isn't friendship powered.  ^-^

Friendship is likely one of the many types of magic in that world. Including whatever the villains use. Discord also has magic and he doesn't use friendship for magic in Season 2.

The Wandering Magus

So all these different magic types are completely unrelated?  Or is there possibly some sort of universal constant, a "standard theory of magic", if you will?
(sorry Bakasan, chose this image)
Descriptions and art of my OCs here: http://legendsofequestria.com/forum/index.php?topic=2636
my art: http://legendsofequestria.com/forum/index.php?topic=298
visiting soldier sister, be back 8/12/2013

Little Judas

2013 May 04, 19:50:12 #32 Last Edit: 2013 May 04, 19:54:26 by Little Judas
Quote from: The Wandering Magus on 2013 May 02, 10:49:40
So all these different magic types are completely unrelated?  Or is there possibly some sort of universal constant, a "standard theory of magic", if you will?

Different, yes. Unrelated, I don't believe it is.
All magic is preformed by those who show affinity to magic, something that comes with certain species or races.

The way of conducting it from "the mind" into "the physical world" would be specific to each specie or race.
Unicorn/Alicorn/Changeling --> with their horn; Draconequus(/Dragon/Phoenix/...) --> with whatever it may be.

Spoiler: My theory • show
Why you use it or the power with which it is used would also be specific to each specie or race.
Yet all magic can be amplified with Enlightenment --> Celestia, Luna; Corruption --> Sombra, Trixie; Love --> Cadance, Chrysalis
The Elements of Harmony would not be an exception to this, though it might be restricted to a good nature.
My theory is based on the fact that there are 5 elements + magic,
that is only revealed in the presence of the other 5.
Meaning the the 5 are "merely" an amplifier for the Element of Magic.
But for this theory to be making full sense, images from previous Element-wielders should always contain at least one magical creature.
Thanks to Julius for my OC. (see the avatar)

Let it fly in the breeze and get caught in the trees, Give a home to the fleas, in my hair
A home for fleas, a hive for the buzzing bees, A nest for birds, there ain't no words
For the beauty, splendor, the wonder of my hair

The Wandering Magus

perhaps:
Spoiler: my theory • show
[quote author=The Wandering Magus link=topic=642.msg24964#msg24964 date=1333207537]
all types of magic are different but essentially driven by the same thing: willpower.  They are also seamlessly intertwined with pony biology; in fact, mana channels in ponies work remarkably like Chi lines in humans, affecting every part of the body and being effected by the body in turn.  Focus points of the channels differ from race to race.

For instance, the main focus point on unicorns is obviously the horn.  Although on the outside it is mostly hardened bone, it can still feel sensations of heat, and is filled with mana channels linked directly to the unicorn's neurological system.

Pegasus ponies have less obvious magic, but their focus points are clearly distributed throughout the wings.  Although their biology is generally optimized, their flight is actually predicated on their special magic aura, which creates an invisible aerodynamic shield around them and channels the wind.  This same shield is what allows them to walk on clouds or create storms and gale winds.  It is not only weather, but also to a certain extent gravity-based, and with careful training it is theoretically possible for pegasi to control gravity much as they control weather.

Earth ponies are by far the least obvious in terms of magic.  Their mana channels do not have specific focus points that I can think of, except perhaps their hooves.  They are linked intimately with the ley energies rooted in the very soil of Equestria, thus giving them access to their plant abilities.

There is crossover between the three races whenever focus points are placed differently due to genetics; for example, some unicorns are capable of flight due to vestigial wing focus points left over from pegasus ancestry.  Some pegasi have focus points on their hooves, linking them with the ley energies and thus with the earth.
[/quote][quote author=The Wandering Magus link=topic=642.msg45585#msg45585 date=1333737398]
Now biologically, the mana channels within the body are most concentrated in organs called mana glands.  These glands contain pockets of concentrate mana surrounded by cells which purify the substance.  Small resonance channels act like tiny biological pumps, bringing mana into magic resonance coils which interact with the aether of the Equestrian atmosphere.  When these coils resonate together, they create the magic fields which in turn create the observable effects, such as giving off electromagnetic waves.

Unicorn horns are comprised of a thick bundle of nerves called a horn chord with mana channels and blood vessels surrounding it and branching out into a biological array of mana glands.  Marrow insulates and protects the glands and chord from damage and excessive vibration.  Near the base of the horn are pheremone glands linked to some of the mana channels leading to a small opening at the tip of the horn.  These sensitive constructs are surrounded in turn by the bony horn itself, which being hard layers of dead cells has no nerves or blood vessels to damage.  Due to varying thickness along its length however, valleys in the horn and especially the base and tip of the horn can be sensitive to vibration and temperature differences.

Pegasus wings themselves are mostly similar to a mix between bird and bat wings; three "finger feather" bone structures extend from the wrist joint along with tendons connected to muscles at the base of the elbow joint on the wing.  These "finger feather" bones are crucial to pegasus magic.  The structure is similar to unicorn horns: a core bundle of nerves, blood vessels and mana channels with mana glands branching out from it, surrounded by protective marrow and sheathed in bone.  Unlike unicorn horns, however, the bones here are covered with two additional layers of flesh- a layer of blood vessel-dense spongy tissue, and a layer of nerve-dense skin, which are then connected to the less sensitive skin stretching between "finger feathers" and the arm.  These sensitive areas are protected by layers of down and rigid bony feathers.  When stimulated in particular manners, the spongy tissue fills with blood, causing the wings to involuntarily flare and the protective feathers to rise, exposing the sensitive down and skin beneath in a vestigial courting display.

Earth pony mana focus points are as of yet unknown, but are believed to contain similar constructs of mana channels and glands.
[/quote]
More from RAoM RP:
"Correct.  All magic, regardless of origin, is fundamentally based on mana, the massless substance which permeates every single part of the universe.  Let's start with a little history lesson."

Images of ancient magic researchers appeared around the room.

"Until recently, the specialized magics of different living things such as griffons, zebras and ponies have long been regarded as entirely separate phenomena which had no relation whatsoever with each other.  To that end, countless journals and manuscripts have been written detailing the specific properties of each field, but never comparing results or attempting to explain some overarching principle.  Alchemy, for example, would have been considered completely self-contained, and no amount of persuasion would have convinced a weather pony that it had any similarity at all beyond superficial points with weather magic."

An illusion of the familiar steam train appeared.

"It was during the transitional period of Equestria, around the time the Trans-Equestrian Railway was first being built, that my father, Lightning Scroll, a professor at the Royal Academy of Magic, postulated that all magic, regardless of origin, was fundamentally the same.  It took quite a number of years, but eventually research showed that any and all forms of magic could be effectively analyzed, predicted, and quantified using very specific equations."

"Thaum was the conventional means of quantifying magic in Classical Magic Studies, yes.  There were also Resons, Primes, and other systems of measurement.  However, most recently it has been discovered that the most accurate means of quantifying what we perceive as magic is by Magitrons, each of which is approximately 3.189 x 10^-32 milliPrimes.  That would be about 2.10 x 10^-53 Thaums for those of you who prefer using the more traditional system.  The reason for the shift is fundamental to the understanding of modern Magitronics and Inter-Magical Forces."

An image of a Thaum appeared, with the rapidly vibrating Resons within.

"Now, the traditional model up until a few decades ago stated that Resons were the smallest building blocks of Magic.  However, study has shown that individual Resons themselves are further separable into individual Magitrons.  Each magitron has only two states, In and Out.  Each Reson is composed of approximately twenty magitrons, which determine the 'flavor' of the Reson by their state."

Images of infinitesimally small particles appeared inside each darting Reson.

"Now, due to the nature of Inter-Magical Forces, every single spell, every single bit of magic in the universe, can be predicted through six simple equations which determine the state of the magitron."

The six Scroll Equations appeared.

"As usual, variables in the equation can be denoted by either the letters of the modern Equestrian alphabet or Ancient Equestrian.  Quantities here are expressed in the Modern system rather than the Traditional system, for reasons that will soon become clear."

"In summary of what we've learned so far, magic is fundamentally composed of and guided by the states of magitrons, infintesimally small particles of zero mass which exist only in two states.  The state and properties of these magitrons can be found through the six Scroll Equations."

"It turns out that the properties of magitrons are dependent on their states, but that their states can indeed be affected by the states and properties of nearby magitrons.  These magitrons, then, create very specific quantifiable effects on their surroundings, by the generation of Spell Fields.  An individual magitron of magical energy mu travelling at a speed v in one direction creates a Spell Field whose direction is clockwise around the direction of the velocity vector of a magnitude given by the first Scroll Equation."

The appropriate equation lit up.

"These Spell Fields, which occur naturally in magnitudes too small to affect any save the tiniest particles, such as nearby magitrons, are the basis of all spells and magic effects.  To illustrate, let's briefly take a look at the microscopic properties of potions."

An image of a bottle of generic toothache potion floated to the center.

"In potions, for instance, solutions and mixtures of various substances create minute channels of magitrons all clumped together inside the particles which make up the alchemical components.  Without going into too much detail, the net effect of the interacting Spell Fields is to alter and interact with specific organic compounds, cells and substances within range of the potion in specific manners determined on a macroscopic scale by the components and on a microscopic scale by the behavior of the individual magitrons in relation to each other as defined by the Scroll Equations."

"Another example of the power of the Spell Fields of a large number of magitrons interacting with each other may be seen in Unicorn and Pegasus abilities.  The actual effects themselves have long been observed and examined on a macroscopic scale, most notably by the quantification of the magical energy necessary for each spell by the traditional methodology, but the microscopic interactions have never been fully understood until now."

The figures "zoomed in" to tiny coils and glands inside the wing and horn.

"As you all probably know or will learn in Biology, wings and horns in ponies and other magical creatures contain specialized mana glands which concentrate the mana absorbed through food and breathing before channeling the substance into resonance coils.  Now it is at these coils that the overlap between biology and Magitronic theory occurs."

The zoom closed in on the coils and stopped.  The illustration of swirling mana coursing along through the coils made a soft noise like flowing water, although in actuality the noise was just to help illustrate the concept of mana flow.

"Traditionally, it was thought that the mana being channelled was somehow dependent on the biology of the wielder, as previously stated.  In simpler terms, the magic, or so it was thought, was completely different due to being a unicorn or a pegasus.  But according to Magitronic Theory, all Magic must be fundamentally the same.  How to solve this apparent contradiction?"

Vector fields with thousands of tiny arrows pointing in a circular motion around the coils appear, along with magnifications illustrating the individual magitrons flowing through, their state denoted by a small up or down symbol.

"The solution lies in the discovery that the specific Spell Fields produced, and their resonance, are directly proportional to the ratio of the two possible states of the magitrons being channelled.  That proportionality is found to be precisely as stated in the Second Scroll Equation."

The equation glowed.

"Now, when the specific Spell Fields within the coils are produced, they create a sort of push-pull action on neighboring fields.  The magnitude of the effect is related to the frequency, and when multiple fields oscillate at a specific frequency, a resonance fields is produced.  These fields in turn affect neighboring fields, and the net effect may be observed as a macroscopic Magic Field.  Depending on the states of the magitrons as mentioned before, the Magic Fields may then manifest physically as flame, antigravitational force, or other observable effects."

"The frequency, and the resonance, are directly proportional to the ratio of the two possible states of the magitrons being channeled, as predicted by the Second Scroll Equation.  The transfer is similar, but not exactly the same; perhaps the best way of describing the transfer is by relating it to the constructive and resonant interference between electromagnetic waves, such as in light amplification through the stimulated emission of radiation, or the resonant transfer of electrical energy across large distances through specifically shaped coils," replied Feather.

"Now, before we get to amplification, let's first discuss efficiency.  The process of converting magical energy to physical effect is not always entirely efficient.  In fact, it has been discovered that it is impossible within the limits of our world to have 100% efficiency.  I say 'within the limits of our world' because beyond our world there exist entities which do in fact have 100% efficiency or greater..."

He coughed, somewhat embarrassed.

"...but the study of such creatures is both beyond the scope of this course and currently prohibited by Equestrian law to anypony not bearing a research licence.  Returning to the subject at hoof, however, the result of this inefficiency is the conversion of some of the magical energy into physical energy, whether that be in the form of heat, light, or a force pushing a unicorn into the ground."

He lifted a pen with telekinesis to demonstrate the light and sound surrounding his horn, then replaced it on the table and brought up an image of a spell matrix.

"You may be wondering what any of this has to do with magitronics.  In fact, Spell Matrices were originally designed specifically to attempt to increase the efficiency of spells to the known limit.  It has long been known that imbuing certain materials, such as jade or onyx, with magical energy, generates a flow of mana.  It was also known that then placing said materials in specific patterns could create effects on spells.  I'm sure Mr. Nova and Mr. Disk, our Summoning and Dark Magic professors, are quite familiar with geometric magic of this form."

He nodded to Nova and smiled absently at Ryo.

"What was not known was that when placed together in specific patterns predicted by the Third Scroll Equation, these "runestones" were actually capable of changing the state of the moving magitrons.  By very carefully connecting or placing these runestones in specific formations, then, it was theoretically possible to convert one type of magic to another, generate spells, or, most importantly, amplify the power of spells, answering your question from earlier, Mr. Nova."

The Third Scroll Equation, a complex formula involving gradients, partial derivatives and various preexisting constants, came to the front and glowed clearly.

"As you can all see, it turns out that the preciseness, efficiency, power and complexity of a spell matrix are all directly related to each other as well.  This should not be surprising, since more complex matrices will have more points at which energy loss is possible, an imprecise matrix is prone to be inefficient, and inefficient matrices tend not to be as powerful as efficient ones."

To illustrate, an image of a simple spell matrix appeared, then separated into several alternatives, each demonstrating the relationships between the variables denoting efficiency, preciseness, power and complexity, as well as planes which measured the gradient of the three-dimensional surfaces of the matrix to denote the locations of runestones.

"One interesting phenomenon that has been observed during the development of Magitronic research was the fact that Magic Fields themselves were capable of a sort of 'resonance' similar to that of Spell Fields.  This discovery led directly to the modern understanding of Magitronics, whereby actual Inter-Magical Forces, or effects of particular Magic, Spell and Resonance Fields on each other and on the state of magitrons, are utilized to create powerful macroscopic effects.  Thus, it is indeed possible to amplify the power of an original spell or create a similar effect many more times as powerful with the same amount of mana.  It is, of course, possible to leech power from other sources... but that is another topic entirely, probably related to Binding or Summoning magic, I would assume.  As for manipulating magitrons from a distance, the first two equations show the relationship between field strength and distance."

He pointed to the distance variable in the First and Second Scroll Equations.

"Now it must be stated that the concept of a Spell Matrix is not strictly a modern invention, as Mr. Disk and Mr. Nova can probably tell you.  Indeed, official statements released by the Royal Court reveal that the binding spells which froze Discord and sealed Nightmare Moon were, in the most basic sense of the term, Spell Matrices.  That is, they utilized multiple spells interacting with each other to create a net effect greater than would normally be possible given an equivalent amount of mana.  Many seals and bindings are in fact of this nature.  Now at the risk of starting an inter-department argument, I would have to say that the key difference between the modern Spell Matrix and these ancient though very effective traditional matrices is that modern magitronic spell matrices are a direct result of our analytical understanding of the basic principles of magic rather than divine knowledge, oral tradition, trial and error, or idealized macroscopic equations.  That is, rather than creating an ideal model which works within the specific parameters of the everyday world and breaks down at extremely small or extremely large levels and complexities, Inter-Magical Forces examines the minute interactions on a scale much, much smaller than ordinarily perceivable and thus is that much more accurate when brought up to the large scale, all credit to other fields of magic, of course."
(sorry Bakasan, chose this image)
Descriptions and art of my OCs here: http://legendsofequestria.com/forum/index.php?topic=2636
my art: http://legendsofequestria.com/forum/index.php?topic=298
visiting soldier sister, be back 8/12/2013

Little Judas

TL;DR
But I will when I have more time. You've put quite a lot of time in it, so it's likely that it's worth reading into.
Thanks to Julius for my OC. (see the avatar)

Let it fly in the breeze and get caught in the trees, Give a home to the fleas, in my hair
A home for fleas, a hive for the buzzing bees, A nest for birds, there ain't no words
For the beauty, splendor, the wonder of my hair

Little Judas

TL;DR
But I will when I have more time. You've put quite a lot of time in it, so it's likely that it's worth reading into.

Edit: after reading all of the Biology and most parts of the story, I have a few questions, if you don't mind.
- How do you envision the substance called "Mana"?
- How does it "flow" through the body, I know you said Mana Channels but how do they work like the bloodstream or does it send impulses like the nervous system? Or something completely new, likely while talking about a substance without mass.
- What are "Magitrons", "Thaums" and "Primes"?

Answers to these might give me a more in depth view on how your theory works.
Thanks to Julius for my OC. (see the avatar)

Let it fly in the breeze and get caught in the trees, Give a home to the fleas, in my hair
A home for fleas, a hive for the buzzing bees, A nest for birds, there ain't no words
For the beauty, splendor, the wonder of my hair

The Wandering Magus

Mana: massless substance similar to the "ether" concept that had been popular in the 1800's.  Permeates everything, like the "Force" in Star Wars, but is more concentrated in living things and particular minerals.  We consume mana by eating plants, which in turn absorb mana from sunlight and the soil.

Mana flows through the Mana Channels of the body, which run alongside the nervous and circulatory system of our body.  It is delivered to all of our organs, and interacts with our biology and with our surroundings.  It is especially concentrated in the same areas that have high concentration of blood vessels and nerves, such as the abdominal area, the wings of a pegasus, or the horn of a unicorn.  We are able to control the movement and flow of mana through the resonance channels and mana glands which, like kidneys for magic, purify the substance and pump it into the coils.  In a manner similar to how moving electrons create a magnetic field and moving magnetic fields create electric fields, moving mana also creates resonance fields which, at particular frequencies, combine constructively to form visible spell fields.

Magitrons are "packets" of mana, as photons are "packets" of light, or quarks are "packets" of energy and mass.  Magitrons have two "states", and conglomerations of magitrons form individual Resons, the sub-thaumic particles that determine the magical properties of all the different types of Thaums.  Thaums, conglomerations of Resons, are comparatively "large" particles of magic which are integral to macroscopic magical effects; they are comparable to atoms.  As atoms have various properties, determined by the number of electrons, protons and neutrons within, so thaums have various magical properties, determined by the number of different types of resons within.  The type of the reson is in turn determined by the state and number of magitrons within, as the type of subatomic particle, whether proton, neutron or electron, is determined by the quarks within.

Our bodies adapted ingenious ways of manipulating these subthaumic forces, with specialized cells being able to manipulate even the very magitrons that are flowing, the way that neurons are able to pass along an electrical signal through chemical processes.

Through these manipulations, our resonance channels are able to stack the effects of the resonance fields into physical effects, such as telekinesis, fireballs, flight, tornadoes, and more.
(sorry Bakasan, chose this image)
Descriptions and art of my OCs here: http://legendsofequestria.com/forum/index.php?topic=2636
my art: http://legendsofequestria.com/forum/index.php?topic=298
visiting soldier sister, be back 8/12/2013

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